(Breather) “Mindless positivity isn’t practical or helpful for most people,” Mark Manson writes in his first book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving A F*ck. He is, as usual, right on with this observation. Realizing that, “our modern, and maddening, urge to always find happiness only serves to make us unhappier,” Manson communicates clearly and concisely throughout his books about why we need to change the way we look at things like personal identity, hope, shame, and happiness.

The reason why Manson’s message works so well is not just the power of the message itself, but the fact that, instead of trying to push the power of positivity onto his readers, he offers an entirely new perspective ― what if everything you thought you knew about happiness and success and yourself was wrong? And what if that was actually a good thing?

Here’s the thing: as humans, we are all naturally inclined to feel attached to various parts of ourselves, especially the parts of ourselves that receive praise. Whether you’re a standout student or worker, an amazing athlete, a math genius, or a truly great dancer, it’s important to not fixate on the things about ourselves that we identify with the most. Why? Because Manson argues that identity is an arbitrary facade. He suggests looking at your life as a series of decisions and actions and try to maintain an identity that is defined by as little as possible.

Our emotional feeling brain actually rules over our rational, thinking brain. Yet we think, or pretend, that the opposite is true! According to Manson, emotions drive our consciousness, and it is emotion only that can motivate us into action. “Emotions convince your thinking brain that you’re right,” Manson says. When emotions rule over the thinking brain, it can lead to narcissism, addiction, compulsion, self-righteous anger, and so on. This is because a person ruled by their emotions has no independent thought, so they only pursue things that bring them instant gratification. Ultimately the goal is not to suppress your emotional brain, but to get your thinking brain connected to your emotional brain. Manson says do not try to suppress your emotions, but instead, try to convince your feeling brain that you will benefit from whatever decision that you are asking yourself about. A good example of this is when people often fail to succeed with lifestyle changes ― this is because our “feeling brain” feels like we don’t deserve the success.

Which leads us to self-worth. “Our self-worth is the sum of our emotions over time. If we can’t equalize, we accept inferiority, shame, and low self-worth,” Manson writes. Interestingly, both high and low self-worth are narcissistic, and self-worth is also an illusion. I know a thing or two about tying your accomplishments and/or abilities to your self-worth, so here’s a funny story from my college days: One day, the lockers got totally looted, so I had no choice but to jog home down a busy boulevard, for a mile and a half….in nothing but a Speedo and swimming goggles (and no shoes!). This was only one day after being the champion of a big tournament ― talk about being taken down a peg!

“Your identity will stay your identity until an event changes it,” Manson writes. “It’s a network of value-based narratives that determines our identity.” There are two ways to heal from this:

  • Examine the narratives of your life, and reposition them.
  • Visualize the future you want for yourself, and make that your new identity.

Let the feeling brain “try on” your new identity so it can become accustomed to it. This can be difficult, because it signifies that you’re really ready to change. “The stories of our future define our hopes, and the stories of our past define our identity” Manson notes, and he advises we take a look at both of those, so we can straighten them out, and get them right! Catch up with my recent interview with man himself, Mark Manson, here and if you haven’t yet read his books, check out The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck and Everything Is F*cked: A Book About Hope.


It doesn’t work to try to be constantly happy. [04:11]

Carefully choose what you give a fuck about and then reject the social pressures.  [07:06]

Identity doesn’t exist.  It is arbitrary. It is a façade. [08:14]

Some of the chapter titles of this book are intriguing: Don’t Try, Happiness is a Problem, You are Not Special, etc. [10:37]

If you don’t have hope, you are basically headed toward depression and anxiety. [11:14]

A quick history of the 20th century gives an idea of what many people have lived through and helps put things in perspective. [13:37]

When life gets too comfortable, we have to pick a cause to worry about to give us meaning. [16:18]

Our emotional feeling brain actually rules over the rational thinking brain. [17:42]

The history of humanity features a major effort to conquer the emotional feeling brain with self-control. [19:50]

There’s a common notion in spiritual psychology that the affluence and love we achieve in life equates to our level of self -worth. [24:04]

Every emotional reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. [25:11]

Both high and low self-worth are narcissistic because they imagine themselves as something special. [27:25]

Your identity will stay your identity until an event changes it. [29:52]



  • “Struggle gives richness to life.” – Roger Bannister
  • “Our modern and maddening urge to always find happiness only serves to make us unhappier.” – Mark Manson


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Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (04:11):
Hey listeners. I hope you love. Love. Love my show with the super cool dude. Mark Manson, mega bestselling author of the The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck and his sequel book, Everything is Fucked. A book about hope and look at all the people that copied his spicy title from several years ago when, uh, the first book launched and now, Oh my gosh, we’re all about the getting unfucked, being confident is fucked. Uh, but he started it all. And I wanted to share some summary insights from the content of the book that will give you some practical advice right away, but also inspire you to dig in and read, uh, this great work from this young author that’s gone into extreme popularity. And I think he’s one of the great philosophers of modern times putting a lot of, uh, history and, uh, referencing the great minds of the past, into the unique circumstances of daily life. So the first book, the The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck is kind of a reaction to the self help industry. And what Manson saw is a culture of mindless positivity that isn’t practical or helpful for most people. This is a quote from a book description, and then my own insights will be sprinkled in throughout this breather show. Manson uses many of his own personal experiences to illustrate how life’s struggles often give it more meaning, which he argues is a better approach than constantly trying to be happy.

Brad (05:42):
So we have that distinction that other philosophers have shared with us as well, uh, between being trying to constantly be happy and positive and carry through this disposition that might not as valid or authentic as, uh, persevering through struggle and appreciating struggle, uh, as one of the great areas of richness in life. Uh, I like to quote Roger Banister, the first sub four minute miler the late Sir Roger Bannister. Um, and he, uh, wrote a wonderful book about his running career that was published back in the fifties when he was still a young man and had retired and pursue into a pursuit of a career in medicine. And he said, struggle gives meaning and richness to life. And of course he was talking about his, uh, athletic pursuits and striving to break the magical sub four minute mile barrier and compete in the Olympics world, world level events. sut to have that compelling goal of trying to be his best in the athletic realm, and then applying that mindset, that mentality to all other goals that you face in life, whether it’s relationship goals, being a parent, uh, staying fit and healthy, uh, controlling the wayward, uh, negative thoughts and ruminations and FOMO that we suffer from in today’s culture.

Brad (07:06):
You know, finding something that’s meaningful to struggle for is a great insight that came out of, Manson’s book. And then of course the title of the The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck really means this subtle art of choosing very carefully to choose what you give a fuck about. And then kind of rejecting a lot of the, uh, societal pressures and forces that, uh, measure and judge us and kind of draw us into those, uh, horrible disease states like FOMO. So back to the written description. Manson’s approach and writing style had been categorized by some as contrarian to the general self help industry using blunt honesty and profanity to illustrate his ideas, our modern and maddening urge to always find happiness only serves to make us unhappier. Instead, The Subtle Art, uh, turned out. It turns out to be a bold challenge to choose your struggles and to narrow and focus and find the pain that you want to sustain the positive aspects of having a life of rich, meaningful struggles.

Brad (08:14):
Okay. A few more details about the theme in the book, a Manson argues that identity doesn’t exist. It’s arbitrary, it’s a facade quote, maintain an identity that is defined by as little as possible instead see your life as a series of decisions and actions. And he gives the example of someone wishing they could be better about their commitment to fitness, working out, going to the gym and the shift from being a person who’s lazy and non committed to becoming a fitness enthusiast is more difficult because you’re attaching your identity to various things in life. And by doing so, the stakes are higher.

Brad (09:05):
You get discouraged, you get negative, and then you tail spin away from your, uh, best intentions to, uh, become a different person, become a better person. Now, if you instead just saw your life as a series of decisions and actions, and weren’t wedded to the outcome in the way that you are, when you form your identity around being a lawyer or being a school teacher or being the president of the, uh, neighborhood, uh, society, all these things that we, uh, get our egos involved with and then are less effective and set ourselves up for more pain, suffering, disappointment, and failure to achieve, uh, tangible goals instead see your life as a series of decisions and actions. So you wake up one day and you say, ah, I’m going to decide to go to the gym. Uh, the stakes are more reasonable and you can, uh, just take action and kind of cruise along without the emotional baggage that often comes when our identity is attached to, uh, the things that we do. So this is kind of in line with his, uh, overarching theme of, uh, choosing what to give a fuck about, and then, uh, not worrying about the rest, being precise on what you choose to give a fuck about. Uh, here’s some chapter titles to intrigue you to grab this, uh, mega bestselling book that was just off the charts with, uh, record-breaking numbers of sales and translations around the world.

Brad (10:37):
So chapter One is called Don’t Try. Chapter Two is Happiness is a Problem. Three: You Are Not Special. Four: The Value of Suffering. Five: You are Always Choosing. Six: You are Wrong About Everything, (but so am I). Seven: Failure is the Way Forward. Eight: The Importance of Saying No. Nine: And Then You Die. So I thought I would recite the chapter titles because they’re clever and they give you a little bit of insight, hopefully with my description, helping as well, uh, as to what the book’s all about and the message they’re conveying.

Brad (11:14):
Okay. So then the, uh, the most recent book, Everything is Fucked. A Book about Hope, uh, took a little bit more notes cause I wanted to share that one, cause it’s probably less, uh, less popular at this point than the crazy first book. But if you love the first book definitely grabbed the second book and it really drew me in, I refer to these concepts often to help navigate the wild times of modern life. I want my kids to read it, good stuff. So in this book, Manson looks at our relationships with money entertainment and the internet, how too much of a good thing can eat us alive. He openly defies our definitions of faith, happiness, freedom, and even hope itself. So the idea of this book, a book about hope is that you want to create a quote string of hope narratives as your defining purpose in life.

Brad (12:13):
If you don’t have hope, you are basically headed toward depression and anxiety. So all the things that we do, all the things that we care about sort of emanate from hope is the wonderful point that he makes persuasively in the book. And here’s the thing about today’s world, uh, by many, uh, practical measurements, uh, life is better today than any other time in the history of humanity. We have a more sustained period of peace. There’s no world Wars. There’s not a ton of minor conflicts. Of course there’s always something going on, but by comparison today’s world is better than ever, uh, compared to the middle ages compared to the, our, our grandparents and great grandparents generations. Mark Bell put this incredible, uh, post up on Instagram. And I’m going to read some of that too. Uh, just to give you a little bit of context when the argument that Manson advances that today’s better than ever, uh, falls flat because you don’t like our president or you think that North Korea is going to launch the bombs any moment, all those things might be relevant, but whew, compared to a generations ago, yeah, we’ve really managed to progress as a, as a global society, despite all the things that still have a needs to improve Mark by them.

Brad (13:37):
So go look at the great Instagram site of Mark Smelly Bell. Uh, my main man, the meathead millionaire, a leader in the fitness community. He’s got a lot of great posts on there. And in this one, he’s, uh, posting a picture of some really distressed looking, uh, refugees, all young children emaciated, starving, dressed in tatters. And, uh, the title of the post is perspective. Imagine you were an American born in 1900. That’s the exact year my grandfather was born. And so this was his life. Uh, that’s me talking. And then back to Mark Bell’s post, when you’re 14 World War I starts and ends on your 18th birthday, 22 million people killed later in the year of Spanish flu pandemic hits the planet and runs until you’re age 20. 50 million people die in two years. Then when you’re 29, the great depression begins.

Brad (14:32):
Unemployment hits 25%. global GDP drops 27%. And this runs until you’re age 33, the country nearly collapses along with the world economy. Then when you turn 39 World War II starts. When you’re 41, the United States is fully involved in World War II. And between your 39th and 45th birthday, 75 million people perished in the war. The Holocaust kills 6 million. At age 52, the Korean war starts and 5 million people perish when you’re 64 years old, the Vietnam war begins. It doesn’t end for many years, 4 million people die in that conflict. Then at your 62nd birthday, you have the Cuban missile crisis, a tipping point in the cold war life on the planet. As we know it could well have ended. Great leaders prevented that from happening. Then when you’re 75, the Vietnam war finally ends. Think of everyone on the planet born in 1900. How do you survive all of that?

Brad (15:31):
A kid in 1985, didn’t think their 85 year old grandparent understood how hard school was yet. Those grandparents and great grandparents survived through everything listed above perspective is an amazing art. Let’s try to keep things in perspective. This was written during the time of the quarantine, social isolation, the economy struggling accordingly. But if we can keep things in perspective, let’s be smart. Try to help each other out. And we’ll get through all this in the history of the world. There has never been a storm that lasted and this too shall pass. That’s Mark Bell on Instagram. And back to Mark Manson’s argument that this is a better time in the world than ever before. Here’s the thing. We have something called a paradox of progress.

Brad (16:18):
Life gets too easy, too comfortable. And when that happens, we have to pick a cause to worry about, to give us meaning. John Gray mentioned this in my show with him. He said that affluent couples have a higher rate of marital conflict because they have the time and energy to worry about nitpicky relationship issues rather than just, you know, fighting the battle together to make ends meet and to pay the rent at their apartment. So, yeah, interesting perspective that we kind of trend toward drama conflict in our lives when things get easy. So to create a string of hope narratives, this goal, to become our defining purpose in life, what do we need for hope? First, a sense of control. Second, believing in and valuing something. And third, a sense of community. So think about that and apply that to the things that you care about. Your sense of community is a huge one. Believing in caring about something, valuing something. I’m thinking of like fitness goals and people that are members of CrossFit community, or endurance training teams, and have that amazing connection of people, uh, working toward a common goal that’s challenging, involves struggle and giving meaning and richness to life like Roger Banister said.

Brad (17:42):
So then Manson gets into this really interesting argument that our emotional feeling brain actually rules over the rational thinking brain. But because we have this rational thinking brain, the thinking brain concludes that it’s the one in charge of the show. We pretend that the rational thinking brain rules over the emotional brain, but it’s actually not true. We’re taught to suppress our emotions, but this too is a fallacy. When you suppress your emotions, that’s getting a lobotomy. So the emotions are always there. And Manson argues that emotions drive our consciousness. Only emotion motivates us to action, not rational conclusions of which car we’re going to buy because it got better ratings on consumer reports. That is the illusion. It’s the emotions that trigger these purchasing decisions and a good example, or also summoning, the motivation to get off the couch and get into the gym and get in shape.

Brad (18:46):
So since only emotion motivates us to action, we need to get buy in from our emotional brain in order to take action toward a goal emotions, convince your thinking brain that you’re right. This is the essence of self-serving bias or confirmation bias right here. Emotions convincing your thinking brain that you’re right, this kind of behavior where the emotions are ruling over the thinking brain leads to huh? Not so many good things, huh? Can you guess it leads to narcissism, addiction, compulsion, self righteous anger, and so on a person ruled by emotions has no independent thought and only pursues instant gratification. So the idea, the goal here is to get your thinking brain connected with your emotional brain, not to suppress your emotions or steam, roll them with your powerful intellect that knows everything, what to do. And you don’t have to listen to your emotions.

Brad (19:50):
No. The history of humanity features a major effort to conquer the emotional feeling brain with self-control. So we’ve known this for a long time that we have to not let our emotions rule our behavior, right? Otherwise we get narcissism addiction, compulsion, self righteous anger. And so how have we tried this throughout the history of humanity? Yes. Religion is the big one, right? Suppress your emotions, suppress your instincts. Follow the rules, go to confession if you stray a little bit. He also references cultism as an extreme example of trying to conquer the emotional feeling brain that’s actually in control with self-controlling guidelines. Okay. So what happened in the 20th century was this awakening occurred and people rebelled against the long time centuries, old self control mechanisms in society like religious doctrine. And they began to express their emotions and passions. We had the rebellious decades of the sixties and the freedom of the seventies, right?

Brad (20:57):
Uh, here’s Manson making the argument that, uh, when you swing the pendulum too far in the other direction, the emotional feeling brain starts to run amok again. Right? So on the two edges of the continuum, we have the emotionally driven human delving into narcissism addiction, compulsive, and self righteous anger. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we have the, uh, controlled, suppressed think about the gender roles that John Gray talked about a little bit, where we have the male breadwinner who comes home, pops open a beer and gets waited on by the dutiful female partner. Who’s supposed to be a barefoot in the kitchen, making food and making babies, right? All that kind of nonsense that we’ve had to grow through, uh, in recent decades. Geez. How about the suppression of one’s sexuality? He can’t get any deeper of a suppression than that.

Brad (21:53):
And the great giant religious bodies and political bodies trying to strong arm people into that deep of a emotional suppression hole. So we have that end of the spectrum. And then we have a today’s common problem since the pendulum has swung away from all that nonsense. But then we get today’s stereotypical, affluent entitled, spoiled millennial or spoiled adult. And let’s not pick on the millennials, right? Uh, these kind of the narcissism that’s running amok. So this solution get your thinking brain connected with your feeling brain when pondering logical life decisions, ask your feeling brain to weigh in. Weigh all logical decisions by asking yourself how you feel about whatever consequence quitting your job, moving to a new city, getting involved in a relationship, severing a relationship, and assess the emotional answer without judgment. Don’t try to suppress your emotions. You need to convince your feeling brain, that you’ll benefit from whatever decision you’re asking yourself about you need buy in from the feeling brain.

Brad (23:07):
The reason we don’t succeed with lifestyle change is our feeling brain feels like we don’t deserve the success. And we get stuck in a repeating pattern of suffering that comes from past programming. I got into this a little bit with Luke Story in that great, uh, discussion near the end of our interview when he was talking about the, uh, manifestation of a wealth of your dreams and how we commonly misinterpret that to think that, uh, we try to manifest wealth so that we can be happy. And he says, no, you have to come from a position of gratitude and then see yourself into with great specificity the life that you dream about. So that’s kind of convincing your feeling brain that it will benefit from rather than deep down feeling undeserving of happiness, wealth, peace of mind, contentment, a life well lived.

Brad (24:04):
Don’t pass this stuff off as silly. There’s a common notion in spiritual psychology that the affluence and love we achieve in life equates to our level of self worth. In his book, The Big Leap, psychologist, Gay Hendricks advances, the compelling argument that we bump up against what he calls an upper limit in life. And this is described in Hendrick’s words as quote, it’s an inner thermostat setting that determines how much love success and creativity we allow ourselves to enjoy. The thermostat setting usually gets programmed in early childhood. Once programmed our upper limit thermostat setting holds us back from enjoying all the love, financial abundance and creativity. That’s rightfully ours end quote. Whew! Okay. So get that feeling brain to buy in, right? Just like the scenes in the movies. Yeah, I deserve it. That sounds good. All right, let’s do this. Okay. So otherwise you get stuck in patterns of past programming and suffering.

Brad (25:11):
So Manson has a clever device where he’s talking about, uh, Isaac Newton’s laws of gravity. And then because we’re talking about the emotional brain, he talks a lot about the amazing life of Isaac Newton. And, um, he draws in this new idea of Newton’s laws of emotion, of course, that he made up to kind of counterbalance the, uh, the rational brain, the thinking brain and all the great work that Newton did, but he had a rough life. And it was very interesting story, but he’d come up with this concept of Newton’s laws of emotion. Here’s the first one, every emotional reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. If it doesn’t, we develop what’s called a moral gap. So if you can think about being bullied as a child in middle school and, uh, suffering these intense, painful emotions, but not able to fight back or lash back at the bullies, that’s the nature of bullying, right?

Brad (26:09):
Then the equal and opposite emotional reaction is going to be a suppression, uh, that leads to low self esteem and continued pain and suffering throughout life. Okay. So when you have a chance to equalize an emotional reaction with a corresponding emotional reaction, then you don’t have that moral gap. And this could be another example could be a passive aggressive dynamic where there’s a conflict and then the equal and opposite emotional reaction comes in the form of passive rather than going toe to toe in a more, a classic example of a conflict. The next law of emotion is our self worth is the sum of our emotions over time. If we can’t equalize, like I discussed with the bully example, we accept inferiority shame and low self worth. I’m thinking of the great work of Berne Brown, talking about the sources of shame and how to get through that kind of challenge here, where we’re you know, adding up the, some of our emotional experiences and then forming a negative self image because of the moral gap, because we didn’t, uh, you know, fully processed these emotions.

Brad (27:25):
Oh, guess what? The flip side is diluted high self worth. Both high and low self worth are narcissistic because they imagine themselves as something special, something separate from the world. So I remember going back to the first book of identities and illusion, self worth is also an illusion. And if you Harbor self-worth, if you cultivate self worth self worth, then you should get a dog. Woof, woof, okay. Self worth. If you are trafficking in self worth, this is a form of persistent low level narcissism, right? Make sense? Hey, I was an athlete. I was pretty caught up and, uh, the importance of my pursuits as a competitive triathlete. And at times making it very easy to attach self worth to what place I got in the most recent race, right? You’re on a winning streak, you get some diluted high self worth, and then you’re on a losing streak and you get delusional, low self worth, both are narcissistic because they imagine themselves as something special, something separate from the world.

Brad (28:43):
And one of my favorite examples of getting recalibrated from a potentially diluted high self worth was the day after I won this big race on the professional triathlon circuit. And then I jogged over to the swimming pool to do a workout feeling pretty good about myself, getting a little stretch in for the muscles after the great performance the previous day. And I got out of the pool and went to my locker at Pierce College in Woodland Hills, California. And everything was stolen. The, the locker was looted. So my shoes, my clothes, my expensive sunglasses, thankfully sponsor gave them to me. Remember, I just want a big race. And so I had to jog home about a mile and a half on a busy Boulevard wearing a Speedo. And of course my goggles barefoot. And so that was getting taken down from being the champ the day before and give it a nice victory speech to the adoring crowd at the triathlon gathering. Whoever stole the stuff out of my locker, didn’t give a crap about who won the race the day before and there I was getting looked at by passing cars jogging along in a Speedo.

Brad (29:52):
Oh yeah. Okay. so that was the second law of emotion. Our self worth is a sum of our emotions over time. And if we can’t equalize, we accept inferiority shame and low self worth. Finally, the third one, your identity will stay your identity until an event changes. It’s a network of value based narratives that determines our identity. So there’s two ways to heal. First, examine the narratives of your life and reposition them. Second, visualize the future that you want for yourself and make that your new identity. Okay. That’s pretty awesome. Pretty simple. The first one, right? Go back and process things and realize just because you were bullied in middle school, doesn’t mean you have to accept inferiority, shame and low self worth today. Second, visualize the future that you want for yourself. Single people visualize the ideal relationship. My recent podcast guest Dude Spellings did an exercise with his girlfriend to write out their view of an ideal partner and then share it with each other what great stuff.

Brad (31:03):
So visualize the future you want and make that your new identity. Let the feeling brain, try it on and become accustomed to it. Hey, you know what? This could be a difficult exercise, Manson says, because if you’re going to do it, that means you really are ready to change. And the stories of our future define our hopes, the stories of our past define our identity. And let’s take a look at both of those and get them right. Get them straight. It’s a book about hope after all. I hope you enjoyed this little summary and will intrigue you to go get the audio book narrated by the author himself or the written book. Great stuff. Thank you so much, Mark Manson for taking the time to join me on the podcast and get that great interview out there. So please go listen to the interview if you haven’t already. Thanks for listening to the breather show. Yeah, you can find Mark Manson on Instagram. He published his great quotes every day and all over the place. Of course the books are everywhere and they have a two book package you can get on. Amazon of Everything is Fucked. A book about hope and the The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. So go grab it. Have a great day. Thanks for listening. Bye.

Brad (32:15):
Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com. And we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts.I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves cause they need to thanks for doing it.


Fasten your seat belts for an incredibly fast moving, wide-ranging, and deeply impactful show from Dr. Ron. This guy has fought a valiant battle against dated mainstream medical advice and in favor of a comprehensive ancestral approach emphasizing not just healthy, whole foods, but also choosing out of the flawed mindsets and hectic lifestyle behaviors that are on display in Silicon Valley like no other spot in America.

Yes, Dr. Ron works in the most affluent community in America. Tech workers make some bank for sure, but we are talking $1.3 million for a median home price in the Silicon Valley counties. The affluence comes at a cost with a hectic workplace, painful commutes, and consumerism traps. Indeed, Dr. Ron observes numerous associated problems: scarcity mindsets (someone around you always has more); excessive rumination, leading to anxiety and depression; and adults pushing this crappy stuff onto their kids with over pressurized parenting leading to troubled, overstressed teens.  

Dr. Ron works runs the corporate health division of the Palo Alto Medical Foundation. He develops onsite health/wellness services for major Silicon Valley companies like the tech giants you have heard of. He delivers lectures on assorted health topics and also gets to do initial consults with patients that last for an hour he can really get deep into lifestyle modification tips that will keep them away from the doctor’s office.  

For the past decade, Dr. Ron has gained notoriety for fighting the valiant battle against conventional medical wisdom, particularly the widespread use of statins to address heart disease risk. Dr. Ron has succeeded wildly with dietary and lifestyle modification strategies, and communicated his approach to other physicians to inspire change. Dr. Ron is smiling now, and mainstream medicine has progressed over the last 10 years away from the flawed and dated notions about cholesterol, statins, and the proximate cause of heart disease.  

Years ago, Ron promoted the results of a UCLA metastudy revealing that 80 percent of heart attack victims had LDL cholesterol levels widely considered to be in the “safe” range. As most of us have awakened to by this point, heart disease risk is not as simple as monitoring ones’ total LDL number. If one is concerned about high LDL, it’s important to test for small, dense particles as these are the potentially problematic ones that are small and dense enough to lodge on the walls of your arteries. In contrast, the large, fluffy LDL particles are commonly harmless. Guess what? If you have high triglycerides (over 150), you likely have a small, dense LDL problem. Even if your total LDL is artificially lowered by statin drugs, you can still be at high risk of heart disease. Remember CNN anchor Tim Russert? He passed of a heart attack in his 50s despite a total cholesterol number in the low 100s! 

This is crazy talk if you compare to decades of conventional wisdom boilerplate: “Don’t eat fat or cholesterol, take statins if your total cholesterol is over 200 and then you will be fine.” Ron has bravely gone toe to toe with the establishment to convince other doctors that diet modification can reduce heart disease risk better than statins, and that statins can often compromise health and not address the biggest risk factors of heart disease. He, like Dr. Cate Shanahan and other evolutionary health leaders, favors tracking your triglycerides-to-HDL as the most relevant disease risk marker. It’s urgent to get 3:1 and optimal to get 1:1.  

Dr. Ron shared his strategies for affecting lasting dietary transformation and lifestyle change among his patients. First, patients have to get interested in their health. Ron finds that many are too busy trying to make money or push their kids really hard to excel in competitive modern life. Second, to motivate them accordingly, Dr. Ron finds that educating them about the why’s, and offering incentives and competition with clear metrics is an effective strategy. For example, he might challenge a patient to focus on an important blood value like triglycerides and lower it by 100 points by the next blood test date. Third, and this is pure genius, Ron adopts an Additive approach to diet, focusing on efforts to include healthy foods rather than grind on people to eliminate many of their favorites. Some of Ron’s patients have wailed that, “rice is my drug,” so he tells them to add more nuts and meat to their biryani dishes! Fourth, don’t ruminate! This leads to depression when ruminating about the past and anxiety when ruminating about the future.  

This show can get a little science-y but I urge you to play it slowly, repeat passages, and do whatever you need to do to fully understand the important insights and suggestions from Dr. Ron. The podcast is giving you the opportunity to get an hour-long private consult with one of the leading big picture health guides in the world. I am committed to getting Dr. Ron back on the show in the future, because we hit so many points so quickly that there is plenty of fodder for further focus. We have exchanged long thoughtful emails on the disturbing trend of helicopter parenting and over-pressurized youth experiences, and we get a bit of that going on the show. Hey parents, here is a both-parents-are-doctors family working hard to give their kids a balanced life and a healthy approach to education and sports goals. If they can get over themselves, so can we! 


Brad introduces Dr. Ron Sinha. [03:45] 

Dr. Sinha health of the Silicon Valley employees, as nice a place as it is, a hotbed of stress related illnesses as well as physical.  [07:11] 

The fast pace of life, the sedentary living, the high stress, it’s accelerating aging. [11:36]

So you have a strong genetic predisposition to how much and where you store fat. [14:17] 

You can see major transformations in metabolic health just going back two generations. [17:50] 

Technology has ruined the practice of medicine in so many ways. [20:04] 

The concept of preventative health has been fading, especially from the younger generation. [23:20] 

It affects your bottom line if your employees are healthy. [25:35] 

It’s very important to get REALLY interested in your health. {29:14] 

Motivation improves when patients can simplify their goals. [32:28] 

So many people are not aware of having any health problems.  [33:45] 

The metabolic syndrome is really the cornerstone of insulin resistance and heart disease. [36:54] 

There’s a lot of compelling data now around the fact that insulin resistance can get worse if you’re on a statin for a long enough period of time. [40:36] 

Your dietary changes can improve your numbers. [42:35] 

The ratio of triglycerides to HDL is a prominent indicator of heart health. [47:16]

What lifestyle and dietary changes can we make that has the most impact? [49:38] 

Raising insulin sensitivity is good; insulin resistance is bad. [53:46] 

Waist circumference is an indication that you are developing visceral fat.  [59:56] 

Kids are showing up in doctor’s offices with anxiety, depression. [01:06:52] 

Is your family bathing in screen light instead of sunlight? [01:09:02]

Rumination is kind of like pre anxiety or pre depression because it is a common thought process. [01:11:25] 

Parents send very subtle messages of which they aren’t aware. [01:14:41]



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Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad: 00:00:08 Welcome to the get over yourself podcast. This is author and athlete, Brad Kearns, discovering ways to be healthy, fit and happy in hectic, high-stress, modern life. So let’s slow down and take a deep breath. Take a cold plunge and expertly balanced that competitive intensity with an appreciation of the journey. That’s the theme of the show. Here we go.

Brad: 00:02:30 [00:03:45] What a treat you’ re in for an opportunity to engage with one of the most progressive and forward thinking physicians on the planet. Dr Ron Sinha Huh? We go back a long time. We published his book, the South Asian Health Solution, which is targeting the a South Asian population but wonderful overview of the ancestral health approach for reversing your disease risk factors through diet and lifestyle modification. I love Dr Ron’s comprehensive approach where of course he hits the dietary talking points of the Primal/Paleo, low carb ancestral health approach, but he also brings in these important concepts of mindset. So this show is going to be a fast moving, wide ranging, very thought provoking. You’re going to get a lot of practical insights about how to improve your disease risk factors, your dietary habits, and especially your mindset.

Speaker 4: 00:04:45 Oh my gosh, it’s a wild ride. We talk about the dangers and the health consequences of rumination and over pressurized helicopter parenting experiences. We get into a little bit of science with the disease risk factors, so you’re definitely gonna want to hit that 32nd back button, take some notes and listen to Dr Ron and I go deep. This guy has a very cool job down there in Silicon Valley working for the Palo Alto Medical Foundation where he runs their corporate health division, so he provides or oversees these on site health and wellness services for huge Silicon Valley employers. The big companies you may have heard of, Google, oracle, Cisco, Facebook, exciting, fun, so he gives lectures and webinars. He gets to see initial intake patient appointments that lasts for an hour where he can really get deep into their lifestyle parameters. He’s identified some very disturbing trends in the most affluent population in the country.

Brad: 00:05:45 These silicon valley workers that make a good income and live a good life, but they’re constantly ruminating and experiencing anxiety and depression accordingly. So we get into the nuts and bolts of healthy but also integrating all those other factors for what it means to live a healthy life. I think you’re really going to love the show. Yeah. Push the 32nd back button if you need to take some notes and I think you’re gonna get a lot of great practical tips and insights from Dr Ron. He’s been fighting a fantastic battle against mainstream medical establishment and dated views about dietary and drug use, Staten use to try to address the heart disease problem and he demonstrated great success using dietary modification alone and getting people away from the destructive impact of statens or the lack of impact of statins and then convincingly addressing these issues with other doctors to help them expand their mindsets and their perspective and progress toward healthy eating and healthy dietary recommendations in the medical community. Great stuff. Now finally things are coming around and the tide is turning where people are embracing these crazy ideas that 10 years ago were rejected out of hand. Doctor Sinha riding a wonderful way wave of doing a wonderful service for the community down there in Silicon Valley. And now we get to hear from him directly. So enjoy the show Dr Ron.

Brad: 00:07:11 Okay. Ron Sinha we’re here. Thank you so much for hanging out. It’s awesome reconnecting with you after many years, right? Yeah. We, um, we, I first saw you down the street when I did a little, uh, a seminar for people interested in primal living.

Ron: 00:07:27 Totally.

Brad: 00:07:27 And then I think I flashed a quick slide about don’t use statins. Those are stupid. They don’t, and the like this, this hand came up from the audience. Well, technically speaking and then you just went off. I’m like, dude, what are you all about? And then here is this guy, you’re like the, um, the progressive doc, like fighting the battle in mainstream medicine. I love it. And we’ve followed your work for a long time.

New Speaker: 00:07:45 Yeah.

Brad: 00:07:46 Wrote a beautiful book for primal blueprint publishing. Yeah. The South Asian Health Solution. So I guess we could start, we have many things to discuss. Some of them not too pretty, right? I mean, we’re here in the, in the Silicon Valley. Yes. Um, is it, it’s the number one most affluent area in the country in terms of like whatever medium home price and all that, right?

Ron: 00:08:07 Absolutely.

Brad: 00:08:08 Yeah. But we have major issues here.

Ron: 00:08:10 Yep.

Brad: 00:08:11 So what’s, what’s going on man, with the affluence and the access to fantastic healthcare and, and great food. We’re destroying our health in many ways.

Ron: 00:08:20 And that’s really the big paradox that we’re seeing here is, um, in my role right now, I still have a console practice where I see patients, but my primary role really is to go out to these high tech companies and try to come up with strategies to really help their employees become healthier. And it’s in amazing over the last decade that the number of benefits and services that I’m seeing evolving in these companies, and honestly, Brad. in a lot of cases, it’s really to just take competitive because right now everybody’s trying to recruit the highest quality engineers. So let’s throw this benefit at them. Let’s throw that benefit at them. Yet when we look over a lot of their information from a population health standpoint, we still find that depression, anxiety, diabetes, undiagnosed cancers or a lot of chronic health conditions are still at the top of the list. So despite sharing them with all these benefits, like you said, world-class health care, onsite health care, onsite dentists, everything. Um, we have employees who are still suffering with a lot of mental and physical health maladies. So, so the answer isn’t just to give them more benefits and better access is to really dig deeper into what are the root causes of, you know, you’re living in this incredible area, you know, beautiful climate.

Ron: 00:09:24 Um, you can do anything here, but, um, why are people still suffering? So that Kinda got me going on my journey because really, uh, within, you know, taught to be a counselor, a mental health specialist in medical school. We didn’t realize the role of stress with chronic disease. You were absent that day when they come like that. I called in sick that day or something. But, but it’s really at the root of everything we see here in the clinic at every level.

Brad: 00:09:44 So, uh, we’ll also, the physical, uh, issues I think are not, not just here, but all over the place with the hardworking tech, uh, overstimulated, hyper-connected population. Yup. And so how did those present, when you, when you come see a patient, what’s, what’s going on with the average Joe American person?

Ron: 00:10:04 Yeah, good point.

Ron: 00:10:05 And you’re right, this whole tech addiction, it’s not a Silicon Valley phenomenon. It’s worldwide.

Brad: 00:10:09 We just made this stuff here and yeah, we made it in and out.

Ron: 00:10:12 Exactly right. But, um, I think a lot of it starts with the fact that number one health often is not a priority. You know, the priority for a lot of people is you’re surrounded by people at your company that are doing so well. And often you’re at, you’ll hear about the one guy that may be broke out of your company and they started their own, you know, company, and now they’ve made this much money. So there’s always this comparison effect. This always happening. Even when I get invited to social occasions the topical conversations are basically, Hey, what happened with that one guy with this startup? Hey, did you hear about this? Investment? Conversations are fixated on, you know, financial productivity, who’s really succeeding the most? And it gets real infused in your DNA.

Ron: 00:10:49 So on the one hand it’s very exciting because you think the world is at your hand and you can do all these amazing things and that’s the positive of it. But the negative is when you’re surrounded by people that are such high achievers, you feel inadequate, you know, all the time, and your bar for success just keeps going up. So maybe you broke out of that company, now you’re hanging with C levels, but now you hear about the C levels that are actually achieving even more. So you just keep rising and rising and rising and feeling satisfied. So I think this happens in any environment worldwide, but here I think the bar is just so high that there’s just no end to it. So

Brad: 00:11:19 also the work, a pace is frenetic, maybe more so than I’m sure somewhere in less, less technological economy. Yeah. And so what happens when someone’s overworking like to their, to their, to their physical health when you go in and take their blood, what’s going on?

Ron: 00:11:36 So the types of things that we’re seeing is, you know, we, I’m in our books really focused a lot on insulin resistance in diabetes. And this is something I was trained about in medical school. But typically when we talk about case studies of people developing diabetes or kidney issues, our case studies would involve 60 70 plus year people, you know, and here when I came to silicon valley, that’s sort of what I was expecting. But then all of a sudden I’m seeing heart attacks and people in their thirties you know, early thirties you know, diabetes type two presenting teenage years to early twenties. So everything I was taught about in medical training is present presenting decades earlier. And that was a shock to me in the beginning. I thought maybe these are anomalies, but then what we realized is exactly what you said, that fast pace of life, the sedentary living, the high stress, it’s accelerating aging.

Ron: 00:12:21 And we’ve talked about that a lot in prior posts is accelerating aging through fast lifestyle. We see that based on blood markers and we also see that based on culture. So a lot of the focus of my work is certain ethnic groups react much more strongly to these sorts of effects and others. So people that are immigrating from Asian, India that come from a community where there was more group living, maybe stress levels were lower because of the way they lived. When you introduce them into the western style of living, eating and lifestyle, things are just out of hand, they can become diabetic really quickly. So yeah.

Brad: 00:12:53 Why do you say group living? What’s that benefit or how does that factor in?

Ron: 00:12:57 Well, you know, we talk about the village, you know, so basically if you’re coming from anywhere in the world where you’re surrounded by neighbors, by direct family members, extended family members that live around you and support you, you know that sort of group dynamic, this the face to face social interactions that you’re not deliberately trying to seek out there around you all the time. And that was just a part of daily living. And then all of a sudden you take someone from that environment and you put them in like a two bedroom studio right next to a high tech company where they’ve got no other connections, um, that has an adverse effect emotionally and even on your immune system as well too. So, so often I’ve seen patients where there were followed and they might have some baseline tests that they brought from India or China and I can get some baseline info. And it’s amazing. We think about the freshman 15 when you go to college, I talked about this freshman 15 when you first immigrate to this country, you look at the blood parameters and have the glucose goes up or if I’ve got baseline inflammatory markers, how those ended up getting adversely effected. So, so it’s sort of a, a symbol of, you know, going from that group environment to this individual sort of me, me, me sort of society. What really that can do to your emotional and metabolic health.

Brad: 00:14:01 So are there other genetic predispositions, cause it seemed like the message in your book, a shout out to your peeps, the South Asian Health Solution as you said, you guys are kind of screwed. So you better pay attention and listen to them because they respond even worse than let’s say a control subject to a high carbohydrate diet. For example?

Ron: 00:14:17 Good point. You know the, the thing is with Asian Indians, east Asians, Filipinos, certain ethnic groups, what happens is that carbohydrate threshold is actually much lower. The switch for them turning into a metabolic syndrome, insulin resistant person is much lower. So often, you know, if it might take 300 grams of carbohydrate for you to become diabetic, it might take only 150 to 200 grams in one of my patients. And it’s, it’s interesting cause as I take their baseline carbohydrate information, we realized that my gosh, it’s amazing. Like how low that barrier is. And the other thing is when you look at these individuals, they don’t look like your typical diabetics. You’d think that they’d be 20, 30 pounds overweight, but often their body mass index is 21 or 22, which would be considered under weight. But a lot of that fat is being socked away into the liver. It’s stored as triglycerides in the bloodstream. So it’s that invisible fat. And we all probably know about, you know, skinny fat and these types of things. But it’s an epidemic in this population because they’re slender and then culturally their family members think they need to be fed even more. So the spouses are overfeeding with more carbs and if they don’t have any consciousness around that, the problem just gets out of hand.

Brad: 00:15:21 So you have a strong genetic predisposition to how much and where you store fat. For example, we can all nod our heads and think about, um, the, the, uh, the generations of, of potbellies and males on my side or the thick calves that I, I hate looking at them and my mother has them and so does my grandmother. So we have that genetic predisposition. But then we also have, uh, the, the lucky folks who don’t have that predisposition to, to pack on a bunch of fat.

Ron: 00:15:50 Yeah.

Brad: 00:15:50 But in a way, um, there that, that’s, that’s a problem you’re saying.

Ron: 00:15:55 Exactly. I mean the, the problem is they’re packing on the fat in the wrong area and the

Brad: 00:15:59 on the like around the organs?

Ron: 00:16:01 Around the organs? The visceral fat. Exactly. And if you look at ethnic groups, if you looked at the fat distribution of what say in Asian versus a Caucasian and an African American, the distribution is very different. So for, um, Caucasians, you’ll see moderate amounts of subcutaneous and visceral fat. For African Americans, they have a much larger proportion of subcutaneous and smaller versions of visceral fat actually. So a lot of their heart disease comes from hypertension and less from insulin resistance. But when you look at the Asian distribution, that visceral fat is really large and there’s just a thin room of subcutaneous fat, which is why they’re really much more slender. So, so that predisposition really makes a set up for developing heart disease in these conditions at a lower body weight. And at a lower age as well too.

Brad: 00:16:46 So we’re probably gaining these insights only in recent times.

Ron: 00:16:52 It’s recent times because now we finally have access to more diverse literature is, you probably know a lot of our standard guidelines are based on studies done in Framingham, Massachusetts. So 1950s white people, um, were studies done more domestically. And then what we do is we create guidelines and we sort of apply that to diverse population. But now that we’re really looking at more global literature, when you start looking at those research studies, you start to realize, wow, there’s really differences in the way that we should set weight guidelines, you know, heart risk guidelines, you know, age of onset of disease. So, you know, it’d be wonderful if we could have a one stop solution for everyone. But unless you understand their ethnic background and metabolic, you know, you could be giving the wrong type of advice. For example, the low fat diet for somebody who is much more predisposed to being insulin resistant, that could just be, you know, very devastating to the metabolism.

Brad: 00:17:41 Well, I’d say there’s probably some common ground where you can tell every patient to quit drinking slurpees and you’ll be, you’ll safe.

Ron: 00:17:49 Yeah.

Brad: 00:17:50 But then when we start to look at their particulars, yeah. Um, what about the, um, is this coming from the last a hundred generations of South Asian heritage and the last a hundred? I just did my end history. DNA. I’m 46% Irish and 44%, uh, British western Europe. So I’m like, uh, you know, I’m a pure bread, which I may or may not be good. Uh, but now we can track and see, you know, going pretty far back. Yeah. So where’s that influence that’s making me a skinny fat or predisposed to, to this or that? Is that 10 generations, a hundred?

Ron: 00:18:23 Um, no. The interesting thing is when you look at the data, it looks like it’s more like three generations, probably three to four.

Brad: 00:18:29 Ouch, man. And really gramp. Why didn’t you have more fruit in your diet?

Ron: 00:18:33 That’s it. That’s really, yeah. I mean, if you look at a lot of those sort of, even when I go back to India and you look at a lot of our families, you might see that parents and grandparents, you know, they’re, they’re okay. Um, but basically, you know, I think the major problem has been that with the Diet, even though their carbohydrate diet was a little bit heavier, it was still natural, it was still things like the wheat was made naturally with still homemade, a lot of process chemicals didn’t really enter into the diet. Um, their lifestyles were more physically active as well too. So there were walking more. They’re doing a lot more natural physical activity and that counteracted a lot of their insulin resistant tendencies. They weren’t necessarily, if you looked at my grandparents for example, that lived to be 90 plus, they weren’t sporting six packs. Right? So they still carried a healthy amount of subcutaneous fat. Um, but it still wasn’t enough of the visceral fat to really trigger high triglycerides and metabolic syndromes. So, so, so that’s the interesting thing is with a lot of our patients I ask them, can you remember your last healthy relative?

Ron: 00:19:30 And usually it is kind of like a grandparent, you know, sometimes it goes back to parents if they weren’t sort of exposed to western foods and it’s unbelievable. And I take care of multigenerational patients, I’ll look at their lipids and things. It’s a dramatically different from the current generation. So you can see within just two generations just major, major transformations in metabolic health.

Brad: 00:19:50 So I suppose that’s the lifestyle choices and turning the turning the corner and taking, taking some detours from absolutely rate things that your grandparents did. Like I can totally see that.

Ron: 00:20:03 Yeah. Yeah.

Brad: 00:20:04 Even right now my, I’m really concerned because um, you know, thinking about my, the, the career that our fathers had, let’s say. And my father was a, a physician as well. He was a surgeon. He had a long career as a surgeon and he worked really hard and he got called in the middle of the night and went to call.

Ron: 00:20:22 Just like my Dad,

Brad: 00:20:23 He was not bangin. He wasn’t sending 2000 text messages a month and having that extra layer of just um, you know, nonstop.

Ron: 00:20:31 Uh, you nailed it.

Brad: 00:20:32 Nonstop connectivity. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Is it you,

Ron: 00:20:35 You bring that up? My father was a pulmonary critical care doctor as well too, but you’re absolutely right that even though he worked, got up a long hours when he was done, he was done. And right now if you look at the status of physicians, they are facing unbelievable rates of burnout. Like if you look at most national polls, about 45 to 50% of doctors are completely burned out and they’re ready to leave medicine.

Brad: 00:20:56 It’s huge.

Ron: 00:20:56 Right? And you wonder, I mean, this is what’s going to really break our healthcare system if you don’t figure out a way to make the practice of medicine more meaningful. But when you look at polls of what is the number one factor that’s leading to physician burnout, it’s the electronic health record by far over and over

Brad: 00:21:11 Katie, Are you listening? My sister, she works very hard in the clinic overseeing the residency program and the Central Valley, gets home after a 12 hour day, walks the dogs, of course,

Ron: 00:21:21 walks the dogs

Brad: 00:21:22 and then she’s on the computer and it’s like, what the heck is going on here? But the poor doctors, they’re obligated to stay up with the records.

Ron: 00:21:28 I guess with every, we did a study here and showed for every one hour of patient facing time, you generate about 1.5 to two hours of electronic health record time. That’s just not sustainable. But it exactly, it comes back to the fact that technology has ruined the, you know, the, the, the, the practice of medicine in so many ways and really preventing people from wanting to go into this profession.

Brad: 00:21:48 I mean, I remember it was cool for the patient when I was going through my, my surgeries, I had a pen, appendix and, um, complications after interacting with the urologists about the blood in my urine for 90 days. But it was like, you could email, you get the answer back. It was much easier than waiting on hold.

Ron: 00:22:04 Oh yeah.

Brad: 00:22:05 With the doctor’s office music yet this, this hidden consequence, it doesn’t make sense because, um, it seems like you could have a sidekick doing all that for you. Exactly. Like A, and you had to domain in a corporate setting

Ron: 00:22:17 and you’re right, you’re looking at sort of the new generation of medicine and actually the messaging part of it isn’t really what drains us to most, there’s a lot of compliance requirements, charting requirements. So when you look at her in basket, there’s all these categories of other work that you have to do this not patient related. And you’re right, that’s exactly what we’re dealing with is how do you create more meaningful teams. Like you should be able to have a non doc, you know, addressing these administrative issues. And now we’re looking at AI type technologies to really do more automated sort of chats and chatbots that making, maybe you can respond to this. So it has to go in that direction because otherwise the system is falling apart.

Brad: 00:22:50 So we use Google web MD for all further questions about your strange illness.

Ron: 00:22:55 Exactly. Yeah.

Brad: 00:22:56 Dang, that’s disturbing.

Ron: 00:22:57 Yeah. Yup. Yeah.

Brad: 00:22:59 So you’re in this unique role where you can go into the corporate setting, you know, representing a lot of employees. So the, the employee, there’s a healthcare plan for thousands or whatever of employees. Yep. And you’re a pro. You’re representing the provider and trying to, trying to get people more healthy before they, before they go into the hospital or whatever it may be.

Ron: 00:23:20 So, you know, I think the biggest challenge right now is just getting employees engaged about their health and they’ve got all these benefits surrounding them. But you know, even the concept of getting in a physical exam with a doctor, especially from people that have come from different countries where physical exams don’t exist, just getting them out of their chair and into a clinical environment to really get some sort of care done is really, really challenging. So, and I think with newer generations too, just the whole concept of preventive health has really been fading quite a bit. So you’ve got to find other innovative ways to really engage these employees. And so often it might be a lecture or a talk. And even that talk topics have to be different. So if you go out to company and just give a talk on heart health, nobody’s going to show up. But if it’s about the ketogenic diet, by the way, you know, or if it’s about optimizing body fat or addressing fatigue, if it’s about sexual health, you know, things that are a little bit more sexy and racy.

Ron: 00:24:09 Yeah. Then you get people through the door. And the Nice thing is then you can, in the context of that discussion, you can engage them about healthy living, about nutrition, diet and get them engaged into the system. So you’ve got to be very creative nowadays about how you can get busy employees engaged around their health.

Brad: 00:24:25 That’s scary man. I mean they’re there, they’re working their butts off, making money if they can go buy the Tesla. But you’d also think that health would want to come along for the ride.

Ron: 00:24:33 Yeah.

Brad: 00:24:33 I guess are we looking at only a small sliver of the population that’s cranking it at whole foods and entering the adventure race? Is that what you observe in these large companies? Is it?

Ron: 00:24:45 So I would say that the sliver of people that are becoming disengaged about their health is growing rapidly is what I’d say. And just because the work pressure is around them are growing rapidly as well to their environments becoming much more technologically dependent and and so, so I think the good news is there, depending on the company, some companies are starting to realize that offering a benefit is not enough unless you’ve sort of infused a culture of wellness into the managers, into every part of it. The C levels often in companies will be very disconnected with what HR is doing. So they is kind of down in the basement trying to design the wellness programs and the C levels just care about the bottom line. And that’s unfortunately how a lot of companies run. But if you don’t connect the CEO, so the companies where have the most success with where the C levels care about the health of the employees, and often they will promote some of the events that we’re doing or the health education lectures and things like that.

Ron: 00:25:35 And if they show that they really do care about their employees in these sorts of ways, that has an unbelievable impact on getting employees engaged. So, so if you’re out there ready to start a company, just know that you’re not just in charge of profits, but you sort of become the health and wellness champion for those employees. And just, it’s not just health. I mean it does affect your bottom line. When employees are healthier, they’ll produce more, they’re happier, that they do a lot better. So, so that’s a message we’re really trying to get out to the companies where they’re really, you know, facing a lot of challenges with their employees getting healthy.

Brad: 00:26:04 Shout out to Ryan and Hannah at SVM here in Silicon Valley. They care deeply about the employees health, MartinBrauns. My former boss at Interwoven, when I ran this unique employee wellness program and it was infectious, it caught like wildflower. Everyone considered it a healthy workplace. So yeah, just the vibe and the support from the leadership makes such a huge difference.

Ron: 00:26:26 Agreed.

Brad: 00:26:26 Um, but generally instead what I see is you get a discount on your gym membership. If you work here and this and they rate and it’s just real, it’s, it’s, it’s lip service because maybe on the, on the website it’ll say, you know, we care about a healthy balance workplace and we do this and that’s our employees. Yeah.

Ron: 00:26:44 I mean, a lot of these companies, you’re right, they, they throw in incentives at you. Like you’ll get a $150 Amazon Gift Card if you fill out this health risk assessment form. But here people don’t have any, you know, they have an abundance of money sitting in the bank. So, you know, financial incentives are just not unhelpful. I’ll say you’ve got to basically motivate them with maybe competition in some cases or positive peer support or having the right people come out there to give some sort of presentation, some sort of event that’s really gonna engage the employees and people. It’s an interesting, um, what makes them successful here is they’re intrinsically competitive, right? So, but if you can take that competition to like, um, input in a different context around sort of help. So when companies are doing challenges, you know that around getting more physical activity steps are around perhaps weight. I’m not always a big fan of using weight is sort of the center point of that. But sometimes it is a big motivator in a lot of companies to get employees moving in the right direction. And then they noticed that, hey, by the way, I do happen to feel more energetic, my mood’s better, even though I didn’t lose 30 pounds. But that sort of gets them engaged in different ways. So you’ve got to find different incentives outside of just offering, you know, coupons and discount cards to Jamba juice. Yeah.

Brad: 00:27:49 So you like injecting that uh, level of competition, especially to a high performing, uh, you know, yeah. Information workplace. Yeah, absolutely worked.

Ron: 00:27:57 So, so that works. And the other thing is, even without being that direct is when you take an employee and they’ve lost a lot of weight and you kind of make them a health champion. So we, we, we did one of these programs several years ago at a local high tech company and we basically ran it with a pilot of about 30 employees and they all did really well and certain, you know, certain number of them there were just natural health champions, just very, you know, well-spoken. They were able to really motivate their peers and we decided that why don’t we take these folks and sort of use them with the other employees in the company because when somebody sees it, the guy in the next cubicle who’s doing the same day job on a daily basis, drop 20 pounds, looks younger and now all of a sudden sign up for half marathon while I’m sitting here.

Ron: 00:28:38 That’s way more motivating than me as a doctor telling this person you’ve got to drop 20 pounds. Or If of course if family members or spouse or anybody else’s telling you it’s in one ear and out the other. But getting that peer support, if you can drive your peers as health champions, that’s one of the most powerful things you can do.

Brad: 00:28:54 So maybe we should hire at the big tech companies, like every one or one out of every hundred employees could be some fitness freak. That doesn’t really do anything. They just sit there in their cube and look like they’re a project manager yet. See, I love that innovation. That would be awesome.

Ron: 00:29:08 This is a director of finance who actually doesn’t know anything about money, but it’s got a six back, right? Yeah, let go. I’m going to go off for a workout.

Brad: 00:29:14 I’ll miss the meeting, but give me the notes and oh well we’ll catch up later on our, on our budget projections, right. Oh my gosh. Okay, so you’re on to, I mean, I guess challenge number one is get interested in health. Yeah. Get some motivators and some competitive forces in the workplace so people will get off their butt. This reminds me of a Mike Delanco Primal buddy and he works for a company’s satellite company on the East Coast Scs. Yeah, and he arranged, you know that he got the leadership to buy into a $500 cash reward. If you could complete a hundred miles of walking in a year, something pretty, pretty easy if you added up. Yeah. And like it like 15% of the company did it in the not the rest of them. It was self reported too. So you could’ve even lied like 500 bucks or just fudged or whatever. People wouldn’t even budge for $500. Wow. Yeah. And so, I mean that seems like a nice carrot to support your walking and stuff. Yeah. I’m also thinking of Arianna Huffington and her passage from her book where she would take a nap in the workplace when she was starting and running Huffington Post, uh, with glass windowed office, fancy corner office, and she’d purposely leave the curtains open while she crashed out on the couch and had to do not disturb sign on the shirts that don’t come talk to me. Hey, you napping? Uh, yeah, but she wanted it known that the leader was napping and it’s okay.

Ron: 00:30:34 Yup.

Brad: 00:30:35 And it seems like I’m Luskin you, are we there yet in the corporate workplace or is napping like this ridiculous, um, pathetic disgrace of a person who can’t stay awake during the afternoon conference meeting?

Ron: 00:30:46 I think there is more acceptance around it than there used to be, but not enough where most employees would feel comfortable opening up the windows and napping in public. And I’ll be honest, even for me, those power naps are critical, but often I take, take them in a car, you know, before I give a lecture or something like that. You tell a story or do you tell the truth like, I’m going to go down and uh, go to the ATM four blocks away, you just said, yeah, you’re uncovering the issue that it’s still a stigma. So I don’t say that I’m going to my car to nap. Right. So even though I kinda, you know, come to the lecture with bed hair and stuff like that and people,

Brad: 00:31:17 and then we also have science coming out saying your cognitive function improves by a certain extent when you’re refreshed and that these naps have a distinctive, a measured benefit. Yeah. It just hasn’t caught on.

Ron: 00:31:31 It hasn’t caught on. And you know, there’s so much great I’m in for, you know, even the whole stress card. Right. It took a while for people, technologist tresses a true entity that interferes with cognitive function. And I think now finally, you know, corporate leaders are starting to acknowledge that and realize that we can’t just focus on the weight loss in the physical, physical aspects. But now because

Brad: 00:31:49 I don’t recognize anybody at their car, their house, right. Hey, what’s your name? Hey, what’s your name? Hey, what’s your name? Why are all these New People here? Cause everyone else quit man. Cause you work them too hard. Right, right.

Ron: 00:31:58 Exactly. So, so I think sleep still has a little bit of that stigma too, especially during work hours. But um, hopefully we can evolve towards a better situation for that.

Ron: 00:32:06 You know,

Brad: 00:32:06 So you’re in favor and napping. Doctor Ron says, go ahead.

Ron: 00:32:08 Yes. Oh my God. Naps are a godsend. Yeah, absolutely.

Brad: 00:32:12 Um, so number one is to get the population interested. Yeah. And do you have a number two? Because I’m going to, I’m going to tee you up for one, which is get the right information because we’re still being fed bullshit lines about what’s, what’s healthy and what’s not.

Ron: 00:32:28 Yeah, I mean, I think sort of pigging back on to number one is, you know, especially out here when we talk about the high tech digital world, they’re very numbers and metrics focused. Whether their work, their performance, it’s like they’re looking at percent. You know, we kind of joked about this when we were, um, did the book together about how, you know, your report card sort of stays with you for life. You know, am I getting straight A’s in every part of my life? So if you can methodically identify numbers that are meaningful for people and then sort of attach to some outcomes based on some, uh, performance goals, that can be tremendously motivating. But you got to keep it as simple as possible. So, you know, often in our patients who are diabetic, if it’s just one number, like your fasting sugar, your triglyceride, your waist circumference, if you can just stick to one number and metric and then you give them very simple things to do so they can hit it out of the park. So just like you said with that one example, let’s set that mileage goal for the year really low. So 90% of people can achieve that. Man. If you can get that win in place, then they want more as like, what’s the next step? What do I need to do to get my triglycerides a brought up from 300 to 200 how to get it to one 50 so if you can identity and for each person that’s gonna be a little bit different. But if you can sort of find ways to identify that goal that keeps them motivated and then we can sort of go onto further, further from, you know, goals that we can accomplish together.

Brad: 00:33:45 So what would you say is the most urgent thing? Not, not that we have a patient in front of us to talk about, but generally speaking, what is the, what is the, what is the biggest, uh, in the triage issue with the average worker?

Ron: 00:33:57 So I would say, um, my focus is really on metabolic health and insulin resistance. So I’m kind of laser focused on that. So number one, when I first see them, when they walk in the office, you can tell by looking a lot of these patients, whether they’re showing signs of insulin resistance even without drawing blood. So if they’ve got elevated waist circumference, and one of the things that we see in a lot of our Asian patients is they’ve got elevated waist circumference along with very slender limbs. So when I see that in my head, I’m thinking, okay, visceral fat plus very low storage space for carbohydrates because of their body’s anatomy. And that’s kind of different than a lot of our western obese folks where they might have a pot belly, but they’ve filled that pretty large limbs. Their calves are pretty muscular, their arms are muscular. So we know intuitively that they’ve got a little bit more storage space in glucose burning capacity.

Ron: 00:34:43 And we see that in the labs too. They don’t tend to show the sky high triglycerides as often as you would see in somebody with just a little bit of a pot belly and less muscle reserves. So that’s like the initial thing I look at. So already, even before I’ve done the lab, I’m like, this person looks and smells like they got some degree of insulin resistance. And then on top of that you do the basic labs and you know, we can talk for hours about advanced high level labs, but just starting with a metabolic panel where you’re look at their glucose tolerance, I’m looking at their triglycerides, ATO through a standard lipid. Um, maybe some inflammatory markers like the C reactive protein. Just starting with those, we can already make some pretty good guesses in terms of what direction we need to go in.

Brad: 00:35:21 But ,Dr Ron, you didn’t say LDL, right? Wait a second. What about my Statins to where my LDL isn’t that, isn’t that a guarantee of a happy, happy, healthy, long life? Right.

Ron: 00:35:32 So, so with the LDL and the hyperfocus on LTL, we’ve obviously lost a lot of people just by, you know, using that focus. And, and LDL was

Brad: 00:35:39 saying, I lost a lot of people, you know, uh, I mean this, this line that you dispensed, I first heard it from you. Sure. That 80% of heart attack victims may get me if I’m wrong, maybe it was the UCLA Metta study that all these heart attack victims had super low, widely considered to be healthy LDL and they’re still dropping. Yup. Yeah. They’re still dropping f of a heart attack. Right, right, exactly. Yeah. What’s that all about, man?

Ron: 00:36:03 So you know, now that most of our heart disease globally is coming from insulin resistance, the type of lipid profiles were seeing have evolved over time. The old days, yeah. Perhaps it was more related to high LDL levels, but now in the face of insulin resistance, LDL levels tend to look normal or low. And a lot of out of that is pathic mnemonic for insulin resistance because you tend to develop these small LDL particles in on a standard lipid profile that’s going to look low. So that’s involved a lot of training for both patients and doctors. I often tell them that if we make the right changes in the average insulin resistant patients, often their LDL will actually go up because they’re going from small particle to large particle. So before my, you know, referring doctors were getting nervous because it’s the weight, you just took this patient and based on their diet and lifestyle, you took them from an LDL of 90 to 130 so what are you doing? You know, what did you do wrong?

Ron: 00:36:54 But then I’d have to sort of explain to them that that’s sort of expected if you’re going to shift them into a a more healthy LDL patterns. So, so, so understanding the nuances of LDLs are really important for patients and doctors and then focusing on those other metabolic syndrome criteria. Because remember with Metabolic Syndrome, which is really the cornerstone of insulin resistance and heart disease and diabetes risk LDL is not even on the list of criteria. So whenever doctors tell me about the importance of LDL, remind them that it’s actually not one of the metabolic syndrome criteria. Now obviously above a certain threshold, one 61 90 plus et cetera. We’ve got to pay attention to the fact that they might be somewhat saturated fat sensitive. So do we need to modify diet cause it is, you know, just from being one of the pioneers in the Keto movement, some people go a little crazy and become hyper focused on sat fat and might ignore other healthy sources of fat and we can see that translate into major elevations and LDL. So we just have to be a little bit sensitive to that.

Brad: 00:37:46 The bacon and butter diet. Yay. Right. So is that a concern of yours? If you see a person who’s come in and cut their carbs and cut their insulin production, but their saturated fat intake has gone a abundant and their LDL is going up to a certain threshold where even you are going to be concerned?

Ron: 00:38:04 So it is, it’s, it’s not even more because of that LDL number. I still think as much as I’m a fan of saturated fat, it’s a part of my diet. The one thing I would say based on studies is although I don’t think saturated fat is a major player in heart disease, it also is not necessarily been proven to be as heart protective is olive oil and things like that. So you still want to diversify your fats because we clearly have more studies on Mediterranean mono un saturated fats and things where you don’t want to put all bets on sat fat, you want to mix it up between that, some natural three sources, etc.

Ron: 00:38:36 But when I do die, terrain takes on a lot of my patients that have gone low carb, 80 to 90% of their money is basically on sat fat. And there’s very little other sources around that.

Brad: 00:38:44 So, oh yeah, that’s just kind of by default a lack of awareness. They, they end up just eating.

Ron: 00:38:52 It’s the wrong type of is because I think, you know, just like any dietary movement, Brad, um, there is basically what, you know, the educated leaders of the movement are trying to transmit to the public. And then there’s the media messages and you know, the time magazine eat more butter, you know, coconut oil key. So a lot of the cornerstones of that are basically around sat that people aren’t really elevating the importance of olive oil and things. Those are kind of like the old dated fats that we used to know about.

Ron: 00:39:16 So as a result of that media messaging, I am finding that a lot of people, they’re not really diversifying their fat intake. And the interesting thing is a lot of my hyper LDL respond, uh, hyper LDL responders, when they do add even a little bit more monounsaturated or Omega threes, we sometimes see that LDL drop down pretty dramatically. And that makes us, you know, that helps us both sleep better at night. So yeah.

Brad: 00:39:36 How does that conversation go when you’re explaining to the doctor that they’re, uh, they’re, they’re intense focus on LDL though? Narrow focus on LDL is not the whole picture?

Ron: 00:39:47 It’s gone better now than it did 10 years ago. So, cause I think we have a lot more evidence around that. And the other thing I also do is even still, if I see patients that are hyper LDL responders, um, in many of my patients I will get tests like coronary calcium scans will get advanced lipid. So, so often I can come to these doctors armed with data showing, Hey look, these LDL particle numbers, they’re not terrible. They’re got type A LDL. There’s no sign of coronary calcification. You know, the metabolic, you know, numbers are all reversed, you know, body weights fine. So in the context of that why in God’s name, would we put them on a set and medication. So, you know, I don’t always order all those tests to prove my point to the specialist, but sometimes if you can provide that data, it sort of helps educate them. And I’d say now there’s just a lot more great information around this sort of LDO um, you know, paradox or you know, you know, the miseducation around LDL.

Brad: 00:40:36 Now you’re saying this calmly with a smile. We’re chilling here in the conference room, but it’s been 10 years of, I imagine. And I’ve talked to you over time, that it’s been really fighting a battle against the, uh, the, the fixed conventional wisdom that turns out that it was based on flawed assumptions.

Ron: 00:40:53 Yes, it has. In the other thing too is because I am one of these doctors that will take patients off statins or not. I know exactly. Yeah. Don’t report that

Brad: 00:41:04 we pause this podcast for commercial from Dr Ron. If you want to ditch your medications down the toilet, come see him and he’ll feed you some delicious, nutritious vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds. Yeah, olive oil.

Ron: 00:41:17 Totally. But, but you know, it’s funny cause because I track these numbers so methodically and I can send flow sheets to my referring doctors often I’ll show them that, hey, guess what? This patient where I cut the Stenton despite the diet being exactly the same, the A1C and glucose has actually improved. And there’s a lot of compelling data now around the fact that insulin resistance can get worse if you’re on a statin for a long enough period of time. And that’s just, you know, making worse. The very problem that I’m trying to reverse.

New Speaker: 00:41:42 So, Brian, he’s our audio engineer. There’s your pull quote right there because that’s some scary shit. Yeah, I mean you’re going to go take your statins. And most people, w the people that I’ve talked to, they walk away with a smile. They got their pills and they feel like they’re, they’re in the safe zone now because they’re popping this stuff. It’s in the, in the psychology of the modern humans,

Ron: 00:42:03 they even did a study that showed that individuals that are prescribed statins tend to gain a certain amount of weight after the first couple of months because they feel like they’re bulletproof. I’m, you know, the drug, within three to four weeks, you drop your LDL numbers so dramatically. And they were like, Hey, uh, I can go to town now. I’m fully protected and bulletproof now.

Brad: 00:42:19 So we should do like a spoof commercial about that. You know, like, Hey, want to hot fudge Sundae? Sure. I’ve been on statins now for four weeks. I can indulge. Totally. Uh, imagine you have resistance with patients over time who are scared to go off the statin.

Ron: 00:42:35 So it goes both ways to, so I will say one thing that I definitely see patients that are super high risk, and quite frankly, they’re not gonna follow my dietary guidelines. I get a coronary calcium scan, they’ve got plaque. I’m not going to mess around these patients. There’s definitely a segment of the population that needs to be on statin medications. More people are fearful of statins. So it’s more trying to convince them that you know, you know, the statin are useful in this particular scenario. The other, um, you’re right, the other scenario does exist where people are like, are you sure I should get off the statins and I’ll never twist someone’s arm and forced them to do something that’s uncomfortable. But we do have to present to them the data about risks and really is this truly indicated that indeed in that individual situation.

Brad: 00:43:13 So just to clarify that comment you just made and put it, put a Brad spin on it. Sure. You’re recommending Stanton’s for the lazy asses that won’t make lifestyle modifications. That’s the height you’re identifying a high risk population. Is that what you mean by high risk?

Ron: 00:43:26 That yes. I mean based on a

Brad: 00:43:28 lazy, and maybe I can get a quote in the show to Brian, is high risk really lazy ass, is that our definition?

Ron: 00:43:34 Well, we do have some lazy asses that are genetically gifted and there are a numbers look incredibly well. I’m, they’ve got beautiful triglyceride day show profiles, no signs of insulin resistance. And they’re lucky they don’t have to go on the statin bandwagon

Brad: 00:43:48 Are they eating a good diet or they just lucky as heck no,

Ron: 00:43:51 Um a lot of them are eating a totally unhealthy diet, but they have been gifted with a metabolism where their metabolic numbers look great. And I see this in the clinic quite a bit and I’m jealous because their numbers are better than mine. I mean, they’ve got an HDL of 80 plus, which is, you know, incredible. You know, based on what it’s just, so genes do play a role in some of these cases and on the other hand is, you know, sometimes you will see very elite athletes and people that are doing everything right and their metabolic numbers are through the roof, you know, so you can go sort of either way on those directions.

Brad: 00:44:18 You see that you see someone who’s, who’s trying their hardest and go into whole foods every day or other expensive joints and cooking all the right stuff. And that’s coming in and looking lousy?

Ron: 00:44:27 Yeah, yeah, absolutely do. It’s a small percent. That’s where the LDL number, it can sometimes be really in discord with what their lifestyle is. And that just kind of tells us that, um, LDL is just a very tough nut to crack. You know, based on lifestyle, you can make some lifestyle changes that can clearly have an impact on LDL. But in some cases the genetics of LDLs is so strong the way your liver processes cholesterol, it’s very tough to do anything from a lifestyle perspective to make a dramatic move on. And when genes are playing a strong role.

Brad: 00:44:56 And so what does that mean for them? Are they at high risk of heart disease or can they get their triglycerides down by limiting carbohydrate intake or something?

Ron: 00:45:03 Yeah, so that’s the million dollar question. When you take somebody that let’s say is athletic, everything that you look at in your checklist they’ve met or exceeded in terms of, you know, health goals, but they have an isolated high LDL, what do you do? You know, so if you get the advanced cholesterol profile, you’re checking inflammatory markers, you get a heart scan, there’s no signs of plaque. What do you do with that person? So traditional medical western medicine would say still they need a Statin. You know, I would be leaning towards not doing a Staten, but you do have to have the conversation about the fact that yes, even with an isolated elevated LDL, there is some presumptive risk, you know. So unfortunately there’s, you know, a studies or data to look at everybody in the lipid world bets. Like the one question nobody can definitively answer. So if you talk to all the experts, you know, they’ll probably be a little bit safe and say put them on a stat and get that LDL down to 130, 100, whatever. Um, but a lot of us that are still a bit unsure and our gut check tells us that this just doesn’t look and smell like someone that’s going to have a heart attack in the next five to 10 years. We might sort of have a conversation and hold off on Stantons and sort of go from there.

Brad: 00:46:04 Can you put an individual through like the uh, the stress EKG on the treadmill and get some other indicators besides their blood work that they’re looking good in terms of cardiovascular health.

Ron: 00:46:15 So you can do all these things. So you know, so first of all, if you put them on a stress test, which you’re looking for is do they have a large enough plaque that’s obstructing their arteries during exercise, in which case a lot of them would be having symptoms while they’re exercising. If that stress test is normal, they might still have plaque. And that’s where the coronary calcium scan can be useful because you can pick up on those small plaques, but you’re still looking for calcified plaques, right? So there is still a cohort of patients that can develop noncalcified plaques that you may not see on a standard coronary calcium scan.

Ron: 00:46:44 But the, the, the good news is that the generations of images and scanners are getting much more high fidelity. So we’re pretty much close to a stage now where we can readily have accessible tests with minimal radiation exposure where you can see all types of plaques. So really that that’s going to be the, the real determinant in the near future is even if your LDL is 240, if you have a skin like this that can detect all forms of plaque, um, that’s readily accessible and we see that there’s really no evidence of any impending plaque formation or rupture, then why would you put them on a drug like that? So, uh,

Brad: 00:47:16 do you like the ratio of triglycerides to HDL as a really prominent indicator of your heart health?

Ron: 00:47:21 I love the triglyceride. It’s just a really easily accessible number. It’s not one that’s reported on most lab tests, but that’s just such a great simple indicator of early insulin resistance.

Speaker 5: 00:47:31 So even before your glucose goes up, often the triglyceride de show ratio is a nice lead indicator of whether you’re moving in that direction. So yeah.

Brad: 00:47:40 And when are we shooting for?

Ron: 00:47:41 So less than three, but the lower the better. If we can go for one, wonderful. But that does not always happen for everyone, but definitely dropping it down below three or even 2.5 to one would be great.

Brad: 00:47:51 So we’ve heard about triglycerides under one 50 is kind of an important goal to stay out of the risk zone. Yeah. The red zone. And then we want our HDL oftentimes referred over over 40 is like a, yeah. A minimum objectives. Yeah. And so now you can calculate ,listener, if we’re talking about a triglycerides of one 50 and an HDL of 50 yeah. What’s your grade there for that person?

Ron: 00:48:14 Yeah, I mean I think so. You’re right that the ratio does make sensor. So I think that’d be a good ratio. But I think if you just absolutely looked at the triglyceride, even despite having an elevated HDL, I would prefer the triglycerides to be closer to 100 or below. And these are typically the patients. I just feel like based on their numbers and falling them forward for many years, we see that their A1C’s, glucose, they’re just the most protected against in some resistant in the future. So all my goals with my patients is let’s get that triglycerides to 100 or below. And you know, if it floats up into the low one hundreds or one 50 in the HGL still fine. Yeah. Their additive risk is probably not that great. But I think 100 and below is ideal. And in most people, if you get the triglycerides below a hundred usually see a fairly substantial rise in the HDL over time.

Brad: 00:48:57 Oh, so they’re somewhat associated?

Ron: 00:49:00 Yeah, it’s, it’s almost, it’s an inverse. A, it’s an inverse association in most cases. You get that triglyceride low enough, the HCL goes up over time. So whenever people ask me, how do you get the HDL up, what are the typical things you see on web MD? Right? Drink more red wine, exercise even harder. And these things have modest impact on HDL, but getting the triglycerides down, that’s the number one indicator for getting HDL up.

Brad: 00:49:22 Oh yeah. What else has an impact on HDL? Well then you think about the things that will bring the triglyceride down, right?

Ron: 00:49:28 So lowering the carbohydrate intake, um, you know, making sure obviously you’re getting the right types of exercise, you know, you know, cutting the sugar out of the Diet. Those are the things that are gonna really help bring it down.

Brad: 00:49:38 Okay. So back to the uh, the workplace and getting motivated and concerned about our health. Now I’m concerned the listener’s interested, we’re onto the next stage, which is what are the dietary and lifestyle changes that we can make out of the gate to make the most impact?

Ron: 00:49:54 Yeah, so I’ll tell you I’m, a lot of my thoughts have sort of evolved over time because in the beginning, you know, when I started this movement it was really fixated on let’s get that carbohydrate number down as low as we can or you know, you know, at least to a reasonable threshold. And even though that’s the epicenter of my approach, cause I see so many insulin folks that are consuming loads of carbohydrates now, you know, when I see stressed out people that are in the office that are dealing with the pressures of work, home, et cetera, the last thing you want to tell them is let’s remove something from this diet that you enjoy.

Ron: 00:50:23 Especially if you’re an Asian who likes to eat rice. And I tell them we got to cut back on rice. So that goes okay with some people, with some of the people, they’re like, that’s my comfort food. That’s my package, my pack of cigarettes. You’re taking that away from me, right? I’m not smoking, I’m not drinking alcohol. But you’re taking that away. So then you know, so if someone’s motivated to do that, that’s a no brainer. That’s easy enough to do is to remove those extra carbohydrates. But now I’m really thinking about more of an additive impact on their diet. Like what are the foods that are going to energize you and keep you satiated and satisfied and happy in the context of your chaotic life. And you know, and one of the things we see in a lot of our patients is they’re just not eating enough protein.

Ron: 00:50:59 Like how do we get more diverse, healthy sources of protein into your diet? How do we add back some of the fats? Again, if you’re of Indian origin, you know, things like and coconut oil, which are a huge part of the Paleo primal ketogenic movement. Those were staple foods of Indian ancestry. And you know, based on western science, many people will have thrown out the bottle of coconut oil because they’re like my God, that’s going to contribute to my heart disease. But if I can tell them that, hey, guess what? We can add back some proteins, some of those satiating fats and let’s try a little bit more vegetables. Let’s not over cook the hell out of them, drip them in some curry sauce, but maybe we’ll try to create them in a different way. All of a sudden you’re adding things to the diet to help nourish and energize them.

Ron: 00:51:37 And oh by the way, they’re more satiated, you know? So for example, with Rice, now my technique with Rice is rather than say to cut back on rice, I asked him, do you like Biryani or fried rice? You know Biryani like Indian fried rice where you take a little bit of rice and you mix in nuts and seeds and spices and mixed vegetables. If you eat meat, you can add chicken or shrimp too. It’s like a Asian fried rice. And guess what? If you make it the right way, you can enjoy some of the rice, but you’re getting all these nutrients around it as well. So that’s been more of my sort of gentle approach to diet is how do you take these meals and make them more diverse in add nutrients without telling them, cut out the rice, eat more salads, eat more veggies, and do that.

Brad: 00:52:14 So that is, that’s pure genius man. Cause it’s all positive. Right? Go ahead. I need you to eat more of these, right. Satiating foods. Yeah. Doctor’s orders. Oh my gosh, you’re kidding. I love to eat those foods. And then by default they’re not going to be reaching for the carbohydrate snacks, weight shackling emanate from all sorts of, uh, perhaps bad ideas about cutting the fat out or being the, these low fat options, non fat milk instead of full milk and things like that.

Ron: 00:52:44 And the beauty of that is when you do that, they’ve naturally reduce their carbohydrate load by maybe 30 to 40%. They feel better. And now I can point to that number, that motivating number, the triglyceride or maybe the waist circumference. And they’re like, holy crap. I mean this has gone down just by doing that, what’s next? And then maybe I can sort of look back and say, well, we could probably cut back on these carbs a little bit.

Ron: 00:53:04 And then they’re in, they’re all in cause they feel amazing. Right? So, so again, if you’ve got a motivated person, they might be ready to go down to 30 grams of carbs. Great. Let’s run with it and do it in the best way possible. But you know, I tell people my practice is different. I’m not taking care of elite athletes. I’m taking care of elite sitters in workers and stressaholics. Right? And Arie Nicely said, right? What do you do over there at Google? I’m an elite cubicle performer. Right. And you’re the, the other interesting thing is, you know, I do have some athletes in my practice and for them their goal is their time, right? Or their body composition. But for a lot of my average patients, their goal is to be able to enjoy their traditional foods. Again, their goal is to be able to eat rice again, the way they’d like to, maybe not the way they’d like to, but at least a little bit more.

Ron: 00:53:46 And then the nice thing is, is you know, when you improve their metabolic health and you raise their, um, insulin sensitivity, their carbohydrate tolerance goes up. So once they’re getting more physically active, we’ve added some muscle on to those skinny stick legs. They can handle some more rice in their diet. And then we track the numbers and see that, guess what, you know, your numbers aren’t as bad as they were, you know, a year ago when you had the skinny fat, you know, metabolism and all of that. So, so their goal may not be to break, a world record, but maybe to eat a little bit more rice and that makes them happy. You know, that’s, those are the goals we’re trying to achieve with these patients.

Brad: 00:54:19 So, just a simple, I’m just living a simple life here. I do need to get my Red Tesla when my stock options fast and 90 days. But I also want to eat more rice. Right. That’s wonderful. So when you say raise their insulin sensitivity, just so that we’re doing a little commercial for the layman here. Yeah, that’s a good thing.

New Speaker: 00:54:37 That’s a good thing, right?

New Speaker: 00:54:38 Insulin resistance is bitty bad. Yes, absolutely. Okay.

New Speaker: 00:54:42 Yep.

Brad: 00:54:43 So when, when you say insulin sensitivity, that means the individual is, yeah,

Ron: 00:54:48 Why don’t we, we want their muscles to be able to take in more carbohydrates and use it as a fuel source when they’re insulin resistant, right? Those muscles just don’t want to take that rice and carbs and they’re going to send it towards liver to make triglycerides or storm is fatty liver. They’re going to send them to body fat. So we want to reroute that traffic. So I think one of the things that we did through our book, which has been probably the most meaningful part of the book, was the image of the carbohydrate traffic diagram.

Ron: 00:55:12 So every single patient that comes into my office, I show that image like on a piece of paper and I tell them, here’s the carbohydrate car right now. The car can’t get into the muscle parking lot. So what’s going here or here? You know, and it’s interesting, Brad, cause I see couples a lot too. And it’s interesting to be able to show the couple, and I’m sort of stereotyping, but I can tell them that you know, for the woman often the carbohydrate car’s going more towards fat, but their lipids are okay. So it’s not going as much towards the liver. In a lot of our males, it’s not really going much towards fat because they’re 30 pounds lighter than the wife, but a lot of it’s going to deliver, which is why his triglycerides are high. When you sort of explain it through that simplistic mechanism, it’s really great because now the women realize that, hey, it is an unfair world, but now I understand why this diet is

Ron: 00:55:57 Sort of working in this way for him and it’s not working for them. But really simplifying those concepts. And once you’ve engaged in simplify the concept for them, they understand what foods doing to their body, then it’s an easy sell regarding what changes they need to make. But I think in the past, you know, we, we just tell them what to do, but we don’t tell them why. And these are smart people. You can’t just tell them cut out rice and you’re going to do better. You have to tell them why. What is that rice or that flatbread or that tortilla, what is it really doing your body and this is how it works.

Brad: 00:56:25 So that education part, that’s interesting. I mean that might be the missing link for a lot of people that they’ve just heard the ESP people spouting the information but had never been sat down that, you know, it might be too busy to read a detailed book on your diet or confused because there’s these warring voices that are slamming each other and so they choose out of any awareness level. But when you get educated and know what’s going on,

Ron: 00:56:50 I will tell you after doing years of lectures that all these companies, that is the number one, because you know, I go out to companies like Google and they’ve got people way more famous than me giving talks and lectures on this stuff. But time and time again, it’s my ability to sort of explain science in a very simple way. Like what is this diet doing to your body? I lead with that. So 60, 70% of my talk is all around simplifying the science of what’s happening in your body. And that’s my cell, right? I’m there. Now as a doctor, I realize I’m actually a salesperson. Every day I’m making a sale about lifestyle. So you engage them, you hit them on the front end with the science part of it and how that applies to their body.

Ron: 00:57:25 You tie some emotion into it, you know? So I showed pictures of, you know, grandparents with their bodies look like what their lifestyle was like. Don’t you have an aunt or an uncle that looked like this? This is what’s happening. You tie some emotion to that education and then basically you can introduce the lifestyle principles and it’s much easier that way. And really I think when people come back to me and tell us feedback about the book, and I’ve got to hand it to you and Mark because you guys were so open about really making the book more about storytelling. You know, a lot of people tell me, I remember that case in chapter one. That’s me, you know, or that woman in chapter three, those stories had as much of an impact is my dietary advice of eating 150 carbs or whatever, you know.

Ron: 00:58:01 So. So I think a lot of people listening on the show might be health champions, leaders, coaches, maybe some docs. I think we need to focus more of our energy on making the cell in a emotionally connecting way. And that’s really my passion now. I mean, I can definitely dig into more research and look up more articles and I like doing that. That’s a science part of my head. But there’s another part of my brain that’s more the right brain. How would I create images and stories and messages that will really motivate people so they can make the right changes.

Brad: 00:58:28 Wow. That’s big. And I’m thinking back to some experiences I had with doctors, like when I got my a bone scan and identified that I had a stress fracture and so I couldn’t run in college anymore and the guy came into the room and today you got a, you got a stress factor. See the hotspot right there. Yeah. So you can’t run. All right. See Ya. You know, I mean if he had gone and said, hey, why did you run so much that your, your, your shinbone was in throbbing pain before you started that last run. That really led to the stress fracture and what’s going on here. You know, that that would be like an ideal doctor exchange where the person’s in the position to have you modify your lifestyle habits.

Ron: 00:59:04 Exactly. So we need to build machines in Silicon Valley that can do that for us. Right. So until that happens,

Brad: 00:59:09 well now the machines are doing the surgery. So you could just be like, I know. Right. You know, that’s why you should have Dr Ron podcast. I know people are, you think you’re too busy, but you can just do that all day. No kidding. Yeah. The, the book you’re talking about is the South Asian Health Solution. And if you’re from South Asian heritage, you absolutely have to read it. It’s mandatory. And if you’re not, unfortunately, you know, the title might, might kind of be a niche, niche audience. But yeah, it ha s so much great content in there for everyone to understand. And that car drawings and the graphics were the, the, the um, you know, the, the, the car goes full. They can’t do anything. So then they have to go dig a detour and put it into fat storage. Right. It’s unforgettable. It really, you get what’s going on in your body. Totally. Yep.

Ron: 00:59:54 Yeah. I think anybody can relate to it. Yeah, for sure.

Brad: 00:59:56 So you said, um, that waist circumference is the indication that you’re developing some visceral fat, which is the one of great concern is this for males and females?

Ron: 01:00:06 It is, yeah. Right.

Brad: 01:00:07 And so everything else we see about the different body types. And the, uh, the, the curvy gals versus the, the slender ones. Yeah. All that stuff. Sort of independent of this, um, this concern that you can identify about waist circumference ratio or something.

Ron: 01:00:22 Right. And you know, that one of the challenges with the waist for conference ratios is it’s not something that’s easily measured. It’s not really repeatably measured and in healthcare systems, it’s not something that’s being done because you can just check a weight so much more quickly and calculate a body mass index. But just to keep things simple. I mean, for most people, like when they’ve made changes, one of the main questions I ask them is, are your pants getting loose? Or like, you know, can we sort of be able to tell that there is some reductions in that visceral fat and see some health improvements from that.

Ron: 01:00:49 Um, but it’s not always easy to tell just in the clinic because some of my patients, they visibly look like they don’t have that extra belly fat. But that’s when the metabolic numbers can really tell you that they’re socking some fat away. And that can be the high triglycerides. Often we’ll get liver function tests for anybody that looks and smells like they’ve got insulin resistance. You want to check liver function tests like the AST alt, which are the liver inflammatory markers, and often you will start seeing some mild early elevations in those numbers and sometimes we’ll have to get an ultrasound to document fatty liver. But yeah, it’s just of the body size is an important tool. But I’d still say, Brad, it’s sort of a blunt tool. You know, if we could do body scans obviously more readily in the doctor live or see if it’s coded in yellow.

Ron: 01:01:29 Yeah, right. Totally. And that that is, I mean, as much as we joke, this is a star trek medicine that we’re going to see people walking into a room and they’re already get fully scanned. You know, we get to see their coronary arteries more clearly. We get snapshots of their liver, we got more sensitive blood tests that we’re doing. And that’s really going to be the future where we can more definitively tell you that, yeah, you’re somebody that’s got more of this harmful visceral fat, even though your numbers may not be aligned there. We can catch those things early. So that’s my other messages. How do you find these clues for these chronic health conditions as early as possible? So that’s where you brought up the ratio. The ratio is a great way to, you know, look up, I’m basically diabetes rates. So instead of waiting for glucose, I call the high triglyceride date show ratio. That’s pre prediabetes. Why wait for prediabetes? Right. Wait for it, you know, you know, catch it before the glucose even goes up.

Brad: 01:02:12 So, oh, so then the next stage in the disease process is you’re seeing an elevated fasting glucose.

Ron: 01:02:19 Exactly. Yeah.

Brad: 01:02:20 What are, what are our concerns? What are your numbers that you’re, uh,

Ron: 01:02:22 yeah, I mean, again, if you took a cutoff of a fasting glucose on a standard lab, we’re looking at anything above a hundred, right? So, so ideally we’d like to get that below a hundred. But in our patients that are doing really well, probably more in the eighties you know, below 90 would probably be more ideal. One thing I’ll tell you the, after looking at a lot of fasting blood glucose is over the years is sometimes you can get somebody to do everything right. Their ratios are good, their A1Cs are good, but they just can’t get that darn fasting sugar down to below a hundred.

Ron: 01:02:50 And I see that a ton in my practice. And what I would tell you is I wouldn’t overreact to that. Like that’s just one single data point. Like if you’re in other numbers are great, um, don’t fixate on a one-on-one blood glucose because often that’s just an exaggerated cortisol response that we see a lot because a lot of our folks here out in Silicon Valley, again, and that’s silicon silica anywhere worldwide, there are played at night, they’re looking at digital devices, they’re going to bed in a very high cortisol state and often the liver will respond by pulsing out a little bit of extra sugar. And I’ve seen that in my case, even when I’m in the best of health metabolically, when things are crazy, you know, I’ve worked deadlines, corporate deadlines, whatever I do from a dietary standpoint, I cannot get my glucose below 100 no matter what I do.

Ron: 01:03:32 It’s amazing. I go on vacation sometimes eat more carbs and sometimes I have my meter and my glucose is doing great in the morning.

Brad: 01:03:37 So I’m so, I’m so glad to hear that because when I was doing my ketogenic experiment deep into extreme carb restriction and long fasting periods, yeah I’d prick my finger. Sometimes there’d be like one 31 like WTF, welcome to Facebook. What the heck is that? And then I go, okay, well I haven’t eaten anything in 18 hours. And before that I had an omelet and before that I had a steak. Right. So what’s going on? And I guess my, I was making the glucose I needed, possibly it was post workout or some crazy thing where I’m going, i

Ron: 01:04:10 t’s hats off to our livers cause our liberals will do anything to protect us. So as much as you’re doing great metabolically, your liver is still kind of like a protective grandmother that likes to feed you sugar every now and then. So. So sometimes it’ll like float out a couple of grains of sugar that’s going to show up, especially in the morning when cortisol levels are high. So I’ve learned now because I’ve had patients get so frustrated, I’ve been frustrated. I just sort of let that go now unless we’re seeing trend lines that are really consistently high and we’re seeing other factors. So in some of those patients I might do a glucose tolerance test where they get fed that sugar drink and you measure their glucose and their insulin levels and often that comes back perfectly fine. So if that their A1C and other numbers are fine, I’m not going to overly fixate on that. But it is a great way, Brad, to get people to think about balance and evening routines, you know? So really making sure, can we get off devices? Can we do some mindfulness type things, some gratitude practices because you’re going to bed way too amped up.

Ron: 01:05:02 And sometimes that will translate into better sugar. Sometimes it doesn’t, but it still gets people into the habit of being a little bit more mindful about what their nighttime routine is.

Brad: 01:05:10 Oh, fun. So we can track our morning glucose, uh, with that other level in mind of how well we were. Chill. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. All right. Um, and we also want to, uh, cover some of the other fun stuff. Now that I’ve gotten through some medical science. Hopefully you’re following along listener. I mean, you did a fantastic job, you know, just getting it tied back into real life circumstances and region, eating more of the, uh, what is it, the Biryani is that where you have all the go and then that center exactly. Just pile the meat on pile the yeah, proteins is speaking of basketball. Yes. I did that with my, my sons, uh, high school players. Cause I know you’ve got kids coming into the hoop scene big time. Um, and the guys would come over and say, hey guys, you want a smoothie? And some popcorn. There was a my to go to things to feed, you know, uh, a mass of, uh, young basketball players. I haven’t thought about popcorn. That’s a good, yeah. But like I’d put it in the smoothie, like giant scoops of coconut oil and so you get this chocolate smoothie that looked like a normal chocolate smoothie, but it had like a thousand calories in one, you know, what is, and then these guys would get full, so they’d just, they have a little popcorn. They wouldn’t go raiding the cupboards and eating all this other crap sugar because they didn’t realize it, but they just had this massive caloric bond and the Smoothie,

Ron: 01:06:20 you send me that recipe, that was an amazing recipe.

Brad: 01:06:23 I remember seeing that, you know, section finalists, second round of the state tournament, man plaster high drinking those coconut oil, the secret coconut oil smoothies. Right. So you have great articles on your blog. Yeah. I get drawn in and it’s, you know, makes you reflect way beyond the, the medicine, the blood tests. So I thought we’d get some of that. Sure. Um, especially, you know, you’re coming from Silicon Valley and seeing maybe the whole thing on steroids. But I think everybody can relate to these concepts like ruminating.

Ron: 01:06:52 Yeah. Well I think, you know, the other area of focus is sort of led to thinking about mental health is, you know, my wife being a pediatrician, we’re are seeing a lot of these chronic health conditions showing up in our kids. You know, when, you know, whenever I talk to my wife during, you know, during her medical training, she didn’t learn to address insulin resistance in young kids and teenagers, you know, anxiety, depression, these types of things.

Brad: 01:07:14 She’s, she’s training in pediatrics, but she’s not covering this stuff.

Ron: 01:07:17 Yeah. Because these are supposed to be adult stuff. This is stuff that Ron should be training and not, you know, a pediatrician who should be seeing more childhood disorders. But, but now we’re really seeing a lot of these adult mental and metabolic health conditions presenting and young kids and teens. So it’s been sort of a passionate thing for me because interestingly, like I told you, often we’ll see spouses in the, in the exam room. Now, often I’ll see the parents and they bring their teenager, their kid into the visit. And when you look at the whole family’s metabolic profile, often you’ll see a lot of similarities and, and we’re starting to understand that, wow, I mean a lot of these conditions, you know it’s really driven by common thought patterns. You know, a lot of motivation.

Ron: 01:07:52 So the same hard driving father or mother has a kid also that feels like they’re not getting the grades so they need to do more extracurricular activities. You know, they got to do more academic enrichment. So these behavioral patterns are leading to similar metabolic manifestations. But it’s scary when you start seeing those signs in a nine year old, right? Versus somebody that’s 40 or 50 and that’s an additional, it’s not, it’s not a type of motivation like to use. But often I have to pull that out if I’ve got the family in the room, I’ve got to tell them that these health behaviors are already manifesting in multiple generations

Brad: 01:08:23 . Teenagers are going, see dad, I told you, leave me alone just cause I got a few Cs.

Ron: 01:08:29 Yeah, right, exactly. You can imagine the conversation there.

Brad: 01:08:32 So we’re passing our, our junk onto our kids as we are.

Ron: 01:08:35 Yeah. Yeah.

Brad: 01:08:36 I mean, it’s okay for you to go be stressed at your, your important job. But like sure we’re, we’re bringing that into the, into the home. Yeah.

Ron: 01:08:43 But Brad, when I was a kid, I don’t know what you were eating, but in my high school, my high school was a block away from McDonald’s. I probably went to McDonald’s three to four days, you know, a week. And I ate all kinds of garbage. My parents were both working. I was a latchkey child, but I also spent a lot of time riding my bike and playing outdoors and doing a lot of things.

Brad: 01:08:59 So, and studying medical texts in his spare time before his parents got home.

Ron: 01:09:02 Right, exactly. But there was a lot of natural activity I was doing as a kid, which today’s generations aren’t doing. So they’re accumulating a lot more of those junk foods into their diet, but they’re just not playing and being outdoors. I tell people through bathing and screen light instead of sunlight. So, right. So, and now we’re seeing really the manifestations of that in young kids and the parents aren’t setting good role models as well. Either they’re on their devices just as much. So, so it’s an opportunity to really think about the whole mental and physical health aspects and you know, sort of track these numbers together as a family. But yeah, I think an eye opener for all of us should be that this is having a major impact on just the next generation below us. The fact that they’re manifesting with these conditions at such an early age. Yeah.

Brad: 01:09:42 As a parent, I have a strict rule when it’s 10 o’clock, I text both my kids and say, get off your devices.

Ron: 01:09:47 Do they listen?

Brad: 01:09:48 How would show I’m sending a text through a house into the closed door bedrooms, but it’s, um, it’s a big concern of mine because we didn’t have that. Just like you said, at least you walk to the McDonald’s, right? What was it, three blocks? Yeah. Well you got a great workout going to get your, your fries and your right, uh, you know, harmful vegetable oils. But today the kids are driving to the McDonald’s, right?

Ron: 01:10:13 Or Door Dash a directly home or something then so

Brad: 01:10:16 I forgot about that. Yeah. Yeah. So how’s that work with the family conversations? How’s that go over?

Ron: 01:10:23 It works well. But you know, when you have a family in the room, you’ve got to set some guidelines before the conversation starts. Because typically what was happening the past, especially with couples, is if I told the husband something the wife would not or hadn’t see, I told you so doctor, and you know, and then that creates a different dynamic. So meal, I have to say that no, the rules are, we can’t be judging each other. This is a positive conversation. We’ve got to be encouraging. And then I’ll sort of go one by one through what each of the different family members can do. So you’ve got to sort of take that approach. But you brought up the word rumination. So again, getting back to the root causes. Yeah, we can address, keep the junk out of the, you know, the pantry. Let’s address a diet. Those things are important, but, but we’re just seeing an epidemic. Uh, in middle school and high school have a lot of um, kids that are just dealing with chronic stress, depression, anxiety. I mean, you know, the, the case of Gunn High School, ironically named Gunn High School in Palo Alto with all the suicides that happen in these affluent families with just really, um, you know, um, just shocking to the entire community. They ain’t even worldwide people responded to that. So, um, you know, we really need to think about what are those root causes.

Ron: 01:11:25 And, and rumination is a very simple way for me to think about that because again, I treat mental health kind of like diabetes. Remember we talked about don’t wait for the sugar to get high, try to identify it as early as possible. For me, rumination is kind of like pre anxiety or pre depression because it is a common thought process. And if you can catch it happening on a regular basis, it is one of the underlying precursors to anxiety or depression. And the simple, beautiful way to sort of think about this is if you tend to ruminate more on past events, that’s really more depression. You know, why did this happen? How did I end up here? You know, if you’re drawing a lot in the past and ruminating on those thoughts, your spectrum is probably more towards depression. If you’re constantly ruminating on future, you know, what’s gonna happen when this happens?

Ron: 01:12:07 You know, when I get this job, what’s gonna Happen to my kids out of the house? Are they going to do okay that that’s normal? Some amount of worry is okay, but rumination is a constant, almost an obsession with those thoughts. And if it’s more future stated, the contents more future thinking, that’s more anxiety basically. And we know it’s not so black and white. There’s a lot of mixtures between depression and anxiety, but often catching it. That stage can really help you acknowledge that thought pattern and then think of specific ways to break that behavior.

Brad: 01:12:35 Well, those go together so frequently. So I suppose you could be someone who is either a lamenting the past or stressing about the future. Alternatively, back and forth, non stop and there’s no mindfulness, there’s no present.

Ron: 01:12:48 That’s, that’s exactly right. Anybody, most of the patients that you see at later stages, most patients don’t just have clear black and white depression, anxiety often it is a combination of both.

Brad: 01:12:57 So, and this is across the age groups. You mentioned the concerns about the teens, but I imagine you seeing adult patients doing the same thing.

Ron: 01:13:04 Oh absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And then so, so then if you take a step back and think what’s driving those ruminating thoughts? Right. So that’s the bigger question is what, where is that coming from? And you know, all of us are gonna ruminate to some extent, but often it is as an adult, you know, if we were told from an early age that you didn’t achieve this, you didn’t do that, you know, you’re getting straight A’s, you know, that’s not enough that that carries on later into life. It’s a subconscious sort of recording that takes place at, I gotta do more, you know, so it’s all, I’ll tell you my personal anecdote is like, uh, you know, when I grew up, I sort of went to into medicine sort of as a default mechanism cause my brother was supposed to go into it and he didn’t.

Ron: 01:13:39 And I can’t say I was a guy that yeah, I want to go out and save lives, but I was like, I’m good in science. Maybe I’ll go into it, you know? And then my dad being a doctor, he was sort of like, yeah, you’re doing primary care, but why didn’t you think about specializing? And he was very gentle about that, but he was like, it’d be great if you specialize, you became a cardiologist, you’ll make a lot more money, you’ll save a lot more lives. And I wasn’t ready, Brad, to go into three or four more years of training. So I kind of ditched that and I was done. And although I had a very positive parenting environment every now and then that seed’s in the back of my head. And I think that in some ways it drives me because I’m like, I want to go out and do whatever I can, but sometimes it does cause you to ruminate on, okay, what’s next?

Ron: 01:14:12 You know? So it can be very subtle. A lot of us are very positive parents, but we can send very subtle messages or we can behave in a way, um, that your kids are modeling themselves after. If you’re type A, your kid’s probably going to turn out to be type A in some ways. And maybe that’ll lead to success in certain areas, but in other areas, if they’re not satisfied, they’re going to be ruminating on what do I do to make myself better? So, so it’s, it’s kind of a, it’s a, it’s a very fine balance, you know? So we have to be really aware of the messages that we send our kids around these things.

Brad: 01:14:41 I think the type A’s in many cases are afraid to let that go for a brief moment, even to let that type A calm down. And with those voices, their laces tied down, right?

Ron: 01:14:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brad: 01:14:53 What do you think?

Ron: 01:14:54 Yeah. I think that’s, it’s, it’s hard to turn that sort of thought process off. So, you know, even me a, I would say I’m probably, I don’t know how you’d judge me, but I’d say I’m probably borderline Type A but, but, but often what I have to do with my kids is, you know, I have to show them that even in the midst of all this, that I’m able to disconnect and chill out. And I sort of, I verbalize that with the family. I’m like, you know, even though I’ve got these deadlines, we need to get out, walk the dog and do some of this. Cause otherwise, you know, this is not going to be good for her. So, so were my and my wife and are constantly verbalizing these things in the course of our daily life. So doing this and doing it right

Brad: 01:15:27 and doing it so

Ron: 01:15:27 they’ve gotta be able to see that.

Brad: 01:15:28 I mean, I’ve found that like, there’s like a 10 to one effectiveness ratio of my speeches versus my actions and yeah. Walking my talk and things like that. Right. And that’s not to even, not to discount the speeches. Right, right. Because my kids, I’m telling them to relax when they attend the both in college. Enjoy this, enjoy the learning, enjoy the experience, read the book, don’t stress about tests. And I’ll say that to them over and over. I can’t model that. Yeah. So it is important to, you know, these are, these are values that I harbored that you should have an enjoyable experience studying in college with zero stress about grades or where it’s going to lead. What are you going to do with that degree? Except art history. So what are you going to do with that? Yeah. Oh No, I’m going to go and live my life. And so I want to counter all the cultural forces that are saying, um, yeah. What are you going to do with that?

Ron: 01:16:20 Exactly. It’s hard. It’s built into our DNA so much. But you know, if, if the, if the backside of that is, you know, having somebody that’s graduated from a prestigious university that ends up falling sort of the dream and they ended up depressed, divorced with a chronic health condition. As a parent, is that what you want to see? And in my practice, you know, I see a lot of c level executives and people that on paper or the front of magazines have hit all the bars. They’re on their second marriage or a third marriage or you know, all types of things are happening in and you just realize it for them to get to that point, it’s just they had to make a lot of sacrifices and, and you know, often later in their life they’re like, I wish I spent more time with my kids. I wish, man, I wish I made more basketball games and things like that. Things that they sacrificed, you know, build maybe a better life in some ways. But now they’re reflecting back and having those regrets. I think we just have to think about the consequences of those actions.

Brad: 01:17:10 Jack Welch, my favorite example is, is a line from his book. Yeah. And he was talking about how, you know, the culture of, of working at a GE and everyone came in on Saturday because he went in on Saturday and he now he has regrets and wonders and they sent and started for instance, comma my children. So his children were, for instance, not my children suffered and I didn’t get to know them, but he said, for example, my yard, you know, overcame overgrown with weeds. For instance, I didn’t exercise much. For instance, my kids, they’re , same category.

Ron: 01:17:43 Yeah. That’s, yeah.

Brad: 01:17:45 So if we’re listening, uh, out, shout out to the other parents, get to those basketball games, right. Or read whatever, whatever’s going on. Even if it’s time in the back yard drawing a, I like to do clay sculptures with my daughter. It’s great. We’re not not selling any.

Ron: 01:18:00 Yeah. Right, exactly. Yeah. You’re not trying to build a startup like there. They’re here with the family. That’s the, that’s a family event here with try to build a startup early on and put it on your college application. So, right, so yeah, it’s a,

Brad: 01:18:12 what do you think? Your kids are going to be in those college ages pretty soon and the competitiveness of the application process and all that.

Ron: 01:18:20 I think the whole application, I wish somebody could intervene and just stop the madness with, with the whole college application process because I think it creates so much tension for the entire family. It doesn’t send the right signals. I don’t have a solution for that, but I wish somebody really smart in the innovation world could really help redefine the whole college application process. But we’ve decided to go in and we first of all have not set any goals for schools. For career. It’s exactly what you talked about is just how do we get them to enjoy school as much as possible. I’ve got to say when when I went through school in high school, I don’t really think of it as an enjoyable process. It was just a process basically, but teaching them how to really pick classes that they like, you know how to learn, how to learn. You know, how to like create diagrams, take notes in ways. It’s more interactive discussions today. You know, the the plus side of technology is man, it’s really cool to learn us history when you can watch a short youtube video about the American revolution or something like that.

Ron: 01:19:11 So I think there’s an opportunity to just make school and education a lot more meaningful and memorable. But yeah. The yeah, I got to tell you, I don’t have any solutions on the college application process right now cause it’s a nightmare.

Brad: 01:19:22 I just thought of one tell me, it could just be complete lottery. So as long as you pass all your classes and get a 3.0 you apply to Stanford and you get in just like you get into, um, you know the, the, the Boston marathon that’s overflowed or whatever. Nice. Yeah, just a lottery. And then you show up freshman, freshmen on campus. Who are these guys? I don’t know. I just got in like, it wasn’t that, it wasn’t like the elite maximum. Totally maximum. Swapportunity yeah, I love it. How Fun.

Brad: 01:19:51 Dr Ron. I feel like we have five more shows today from all the little tangents or topics we hit. But it was, it was really fast moving. Yeah. Maybe I’ll inspire you to start your own podcast or at least come back on as we try to, Oh, you know, for ourselves. That’s kind of the theme. And the reason I titled that is like, it seems like a solution to some of these things like ruminating and placing too much importance on the day to day outcome of what you’re doing rather than focusing and enjoying the process.

Ron: 01:20:18 You know, and I gotta give a hats off to you because I think again, coming back to sort of the whole lifestyle, low carb ketogenic movement, what I’ve seen is for some people it’s kind of led to some situations where they’re putting even more pressure on themselves, right? In terms of body Cam, you’ve probably seen this as well. Do I understand her? Right? So often it can take a type A and turn them into a type A in every part of their lay type AAA.

Ron: 01:20:43 But I think your show and a lot of the work you and Mark have done has really tried to put more life balance into this movement. And I think more of the health leaders out there need to really follow suit because, uh, I’ve definitely seen some people develop a lot of frustrations and mental health and anxiety because they’re not hitting those targets.

Brad: 01:20:57 So are they coming to see you and they’re, they’re in good metabolic health, but they’re feeling frustrated. Know those people.

Ron: 01:21:04 I will initially when I was in is mindful of the impact of what, what it would have. They would come back to me, maybe a, you know, maybe a year out instead of six months and say, I was kind of afraid to see you cause I kind of fell off the wagon and I felt like you’d be disappointed in my triglycerides and this and that. So, so after I saw enough of those patients, I’m like, I’ve gotta be much more sort of gentle with the framing of sort of what are our goals here? Right. Is it really to develop a six pack or is it really to make some small changes that you feel more energetics better about yourself? Right. I’m sorry, I’m wrong answer. Okay. Both, all of the above. Right. So, yeah. So, so I think, um, you know, really kind of setting those expectations. You know, that’s something else we talk about in rumination too is what are your expectations for everything you try to accomplish. And maybe we need to be more realistic with what we’re setting.

Brad: 01:21:49 So you’re getting into it with a patient and on this level, cause I thought you only had seven minutes now with the average patient interaction.

Ron: 01:21:54 I know.

Brad: 01:21:55 So is this a, you’re giving a lot of talks. What does your day look like in your role there with the larger point?

Ron: 01:22:00 I do have an unfair advantage because I don’t necessarily, I don’t have a concierge practice, but it’s a, it’s a consult practice. So I get 60 minutes with every new patient. So I do have that advantage of being able to talk through a lot of these situations. So they get the diagram, they get the, you know, the talk on metabolic health, they understand the signs and then it’s not always just the first visit. Maybe I’ll drop in a couple of pearls around stress and goal of lowering, but it might be a followup visit in three months where we started talking a bit more about emotional health and balance and things too. So it’s gotta be layered.

Ron: 01:22:30 That sounds like a nice perk. If I’m working at Google, Facebook, oracle, whoever you’re taking care of, that’s pretty awesome. 60 minutes with Dr Ron, you want to give a shout out to some employers? I mean then then we can like, you know, use this as a recruiting podcast.

Ron: 01:22:42 All of the above, man. Everything you, that’s who you work for you,

Brad: 01:22:45 I mean those guys, one of many. Yeah.

Ron: 01:22:47 So with each of these companies it’s a different type of service. It might be lectures and my peer mobile onsite clinic, which goes out there, it’s an RV where we get primary care doctors at the busy employees. So yeah, you, you, you name an employer. We’re probably working with them in some way.

Brad: 01:23:01 Is there any big place that’s doing a fabulous job going above and beyond to look after their employees? Health and balanced living?

Ron: 01:23:07 I think, I mean, I think that there are a lot of companies now that are evolving in that direction. So, so for example, I think Google does great work in this area because they really have created a culture and an environment that really helps facilitate healthy changes. I think in any environment. You know, a lot of times I think the problem in Silicon Valley is people like to blame the company for everything. Um, but often, you know, the employees can really, you know, take control of their lives and do a lot because many companies that are even trying their best, it always comes back to the employee who’s addicted to work or they just want to keep driving. And sometimes they might turn to the company as being, okay, this is the place that’s really driving these changes. But often it does come back to our own roots. So,

Brad: 01:23:43 Ooh, that reminds me of my podcast with Isaac Rochelle, the NFL defensive end for the La chargers. And we’re talking about how, you know, these organizations don’t really treat the players like the, the multimillion dollar economic assets that they, they are, they’re, they’re, you know, the physical athlete is put back onto the field too soon and they’re not looking after them with longterm interest. They want to get them back and play and inject them with whatever painkiller. And that was acknowledged. And he also said, man, the athlete’s got to take, take responsibility here too. You’re a professional athlete. What you put into your body is utmost important. So I think the knowledge worker the same when you’re working too many hours, these guys are smart. Go look at the research and what happens to your cognitive performance when you’ve gone past that time. Yup. And now, I don’t know. What do you, what do you, what are you doing out there still? Exactly.

Ron: 01:24:33 Yeah. No, you’re right.

Brad: 01:24:34 So where can we find these fabulous blog articles and see what, see what you’re up to. We know about the book South Asian Health Solution.

Ron: 01:24:41 Yeah. I mean it’s got a long URL, but um, my, I blog at culturalhealthsolutions.com and so that’s where you can find a lot information about wellness programs and lectures and any events that are coming out locally or globally as well to a

Brad: 01:24:55 Sassy tweets too. Right?

New Speaker: 01:24:56 Sassy tweets were probably not as often as they should be.

Brad: 01:24:59 Didn’t you say 11 million people are taking the wrong medication? That was one of your tweets I think. Maybe. Yeah. I was like, okay, that’s a lot of people and that’s a lot of wrong medications going out. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Dr Ron. Huh? Thank you so much.

Ron: 01:25:12 Hey, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks so much. I’m going to get you back.

Brad: 01:25:15 I’m going to track you down. We’re going to get you back.

Ron: 01:25:16 Hey, you know where to find me.

Brad: 01:25:20 Thank you. Listeners. Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com and we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop, iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars, and it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves because they need to. Thanks for doing it.


I loved the message of Peter Attia’s recent newsletter, where he focused on an experiment conducted by Cal Berkeley psychologist Dacher Keltner and his colleague. I also noticed that my interview with Peter, the very first show published on the Get Over Yourself podcast, has become the most downloaded show ever. Lots of backfill downloads as people discover the podcast, and Attia continues to rise in prominence with his podcast, The Drive.

Peter first heard about this Berkeley experiment while listening to an episode of Against the Rules with Michael Lewis where Keltner explained how he and his colleague had been curious about what would happen if they put a few students at a pedestrian zone (where law requires states they have the right of way over vehicles ) near the Berkeley campus. They had one student hide and record the other student attempting to cross the street. One thing that they noted was the make of each car – a smart idea, as they soon realized that those driving the less expensive cars always gave the pedestrian the right of way. But the people driving the most pricey models? 46% of them just straight up cut off the pedestrian! Unfortunately, cars mindlessly cutting off pedestrians can be as common as sunny skies in California, and thinking about how prevalent this kind of behavior made me start thinking about how widespread entitlement is these days.  

Entitlement is an important topic to explore right now, and is also particularly relevant with the college admissions scandal that was exposed earlier this year. Affluent parents bribing administrators and athletic coaches to get their kids “side door” admission into prestigious schools highlighted just how far some people will go, and how many lines can be crossed, when an entitled person demands to get their way. Especially as this scandal brought up many questions about the depth of the kids’ involvement. How many of these kids knew – and did they even care?  

It’s easier for older folks to write off all millennials as entitled narcissists in the social media age, but it’s more complex than that. On the one hand, you could argue that there are some benefits to a sense of entitlement. (Say what?!) As Forbes points out, achievement acts as a strong impetus for entitled people to work hard – they truly believe they deserve that promotion, so they’re going to do whatever they can to make it happen. You could also argue that it keeps people from taking on jobs that they are overqualified for, because they want to “hold out” for a better, more suitable position.  

But aside from that, it’s pretty hard to argue in favor of entitlement. People who have a sense of entitlement are more likely to ask for higher pay, expect special privileges, ignore or brazenly break rules, and act first and foremost for themselves only. Probably the most detrimental consequence of entitlement is the chronic disappointment it can easily lead to. As discovered by researchers at Case Western Reserve University, the chronic disappointment caused by entitlement can, in turn, manifest as clinical depression and isolation. Couple the feeling of “I deserve this” along with the expectation that you will and should get whatever it is you want, and you’ve got yourself locked in a terrible repetitive cycle of chronic disappointment and unhappiness. No wonder entitled people are so bent out of shape all the time! All that disappointment and all those unmet expectations result in emotional distress, and this emotional distress must be remedied this is where the feeling of superiority comes in handy. When an entitled person is feeling let down and upset, then nothing provides a quick boost of happiness like the reminder that you are superior to everyone! As Julie Exline, co-author of the study and a professor of psychological sciences at Case Western Reserve points out: 

“Reassurance stemming from entitlement can provide temporary relief from the very distress caused by entitlement.” 

This also brings me back to the college admissions scandal, specifically, the children of the parents involved. A big question on everyone’s minds was, “Did these kids know what was going on? And if they were, were they ok with?” It seems that it varies from family to family. Some kids were seemingly shielded from the truth by their parents, who knew they would be upset if they found out. Actress Felicity Huffman paid for her daughter’s SAT scores to be changed after she completed the test, unbeknownst to her (well, she knows now). And one suspicious daughter, whose father had paid to bribe her into USC as a lacrosse player, told her dad that she was, “worried she didn’t get in on her own merits,” with him even admitting, “She’s concerned others may view her differently.”  

Clearly many of the kids were in the dark, or at the very least, suspicious. But then there were the kids who were completely in on the whole scheme. Listen, if you rode horses in high school, but you find yourself CC’d on emails discussing how you’re going to be accepted into a college based on your prowess as a rower, then you know something is up. This is where you find some truly irresponsible parenting. It’s one thing to go behind your kid’s back and alter their test scores that already shows some serious lack of judgment and feelings of entitlement, because all those kids now know that their parent(s) didn’t believe in them, or see them as remotely capable of getting into a good college on their own. But to take it a step further, and include your child in such a deceptive scheme is only going to accomplish two things: 1) Make them feel like they aren’t good enough and 2) That it doesn’t even matter, because money, power, and privilege gives you the ability to alter the axis of the spinning globe. These are not the lessons we want to be teaching our kids about self-worth, hard-work, and humility. 

Is Entitlement Just For Millennials?  

Let’s explore this idea. Are millennials disproportionately entitled? First, take a look at the research. People in their 20s are three times more likely to develop narcissistic personality disorder than people aged 65 and above, according to a study done by the National Institute of Health. So …yeah…that doesn’t exactly help the “millennials aren’t entitled” argument. But to play devil’s advocate, try considering other factors – like plain ol’ time and life experience. People over the age of 65 may be less likely to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder simply because their life experience has shown them that, no, the world doesn’t revolve around them. Maybe the disorder is more frequently diagnosed among younger people because their maturity at that age renders them more likely to act from a mindset of extreme entitlement. A study published in New Zealand actually found no evidence of rising levels of entitlement among millennials, but instead, posited that entitlement is not generational, but developmental. Simply, the older we get, the less entitled we feel. 

Bottom line is: no one is immune to this kind of behavior. And it’s interesting to trace sources of everyday frustration to feeling entitled. I have been inspired to take a closer look at my mindset as I drift through life, hopefully not cutting off pedestrians as an entitled motorist à la the Berkeley study. Think about all the interactions you have with people throughout the course of a day, and how you handle those moments. We all go on errands, to the store, and have to deal with people working in customer service. And let’s be real – customer service and retail workers take so much crap from customers because the world has been indoctrinated to believe that, “the customer is always right” and a good business will always bow to the almighty customer. I heard a podcast recently where a business owner said, “employees come first, then customers,” explaining that if employees feel supported, they will give the best to their customers. Right on!  

That said, when I feel like I’m getting screwed over, or misunderstood by an incompetent customer service rep, I always politely ask to speak to a supervisor. I actually say, “I don’t want to ruin your day, so can I complain to a supervisor instead?” When I escalate my complaint, I almost always experience a positive result; a reversal of the bullshit first encounter.  

Now that’s great for me and my entitled needs, but it gets me thinking: When the supervisor takes the call and overrides the customer service agent’s initial interactions with the customer, these employees might easily feel undermined and eventually disenfranchised. Wouldn’t it be great to empower the reps to use their best judgement and make the assorted minor (and perhaps even major) concessions that only supervisors are allowed to make to keep customers happy? Then people like me wouldn’t have to use the supervisor hammer on them as often. If the average customer service rep felt more respected and empowered in the first place, he or she wouldn’t deliver the robotic replies absent critical thinking or sensitivity. If companies really valued their employees and customers outside the boundaries of their flowery mission statements, there wouldn’t be as many angry customers calling in to bitch slap customer service reps and demand time from supervisors. This reminds me of one of the great all-time messages from boss to team, dispensed by my former boss at Interwoven, Inc., Kevin “Dingo” Hayden. With his small marketing team assembled, he adjourned the meeting with: “Remember, I work for you guys, not the other way around. My job is to help make you all better. So tell me what I can do for you.”  

Counter-example: On a recent Lyft ride through Los Angeles traffic with Mia Moore, an incompetent driver nearly killed us. From the middle of a busy intersection, the driver commenced a very gradual left turn into high volume oncoming traffic moving at high speed. She was completely engrossed with her windshield-mounted phone navigation map that she was incompetent at following. I looked up from my phone call and started screaming for her to stop—absolutely unbelievable experience in front of our eyes. I contacted Lyft right away to report the incident, demanding that the driver be fired and asking them for some concession. I figured we could start with a refund of the fare and perhaps give me a 100 bucks credit on my account for the trouble. Their first reply was more or less a form email offering me a FIVE DOLLAR credit to my account for our inconvenience! Sorry, but I took this to mean that five dollars divided by two equals $2.50 — Lyft’s valuation of the lives of Mia Moore and I. Further enraged, I decided just for sport to keep bothering Lyft and see if I could achieve a more satisfactory resolution. My demand to at least refund the $33 ride was met with, “Sorry, we can’t refund your ride because your driver got you to your destination safely.”  

Lyft clearly gets an F in customer compassion, but there are many fantastic organizations that show respect and understanding every time you engage with them. Southwest Airlines for example — exceptional in every encounter, every time. Costco and Nordstrom are famously chill about returns, preferring to keep customers happy instead of squeeze every cent of profit from every interaction.   

If only all companies and all of society could all operate from this evolved and compassionate mindset 24/7! But all we can really do is commit to acting more mindfully, and being more conscious of our words and our actions, and how they cause a domino effect with everyone we meet. Otherwise, you might be behaving in a way that you don’t even think of as entitled, but it still rubs someone you encounter the wrong way, causing them to be in a mood as well (and then they run into someone, and infect them with your cranky pants ‘tude, and then that person runs into someone…and so on). But when it really comes down to the true cost of entitlement, it’s the entitled person who bears the brunt of it – the chronic disappointment, the mental health problems…it’s all entirely avoidable. All you gotta do is watch yourself, your actions, and get over yourself (when necessary), so people don’t get over you.  


(Breather) Dr. Art DeVany, ancestral health forefather and author of The New Evolution Diet, delivers some of the most profound life advice I’ve ever heard during a 2017 podcast interview on the Align podcast with Aaron Alexander.

At 81, DeVany is retired from his professor career and is pretty minimal on the interview/podcast/lecture scene, so please listen to the whole podcast and reflect carefully on the following commentary that came at the end of the show.  

Of course, you have to work at whatever you’re doing, you have to have high standards for your work. But you also have to realize that there’s a lot of stuff that you make too big of a fuss over. And when you stop that – it doesn’t mean you don’t care – but when you stop beating yourself or beating someone else up over it when you stop ruminating about it, you’re free.  

And you gotta set yourself free – set yourself free from your old mistakes and things that happened to you. And even set yourself free from people, thoughts, foods, and habits that bring you down. That’s when you’re free! Then you can start anew. You can renew every day. Granted, you can’t forget the past. Then you wouldn’t have any memories. Appreciating your history as strength and wisdom gained and getting a move on is necessary for good health.  

Realize that beyond his health interests, DeVany was an economics professor specializing in the complex aspects of how to predict how Hollywood movies make money. In that context, he often emphasizes the importance of random, explosive, life-changing events that apply not just to the economic realm, but in all areas of life. This will help you process a vital comment about “…it’s not the drip, drip, drip.” Can you reference explosive random events that altered your life path more so than plugging away day after day on a linear way? Pay attention to opportunities of all kinds and don’t be afraid to go for it!   

Here is one of his choice quotes, from his professional realm as an economics professor:  

“In any organization, half the work is done by the square root of the total number of workers. E.g., 100 workers, half the work is done by 10 workers.”  

Here are DeVany’s recommendations to deal with depression: “Starve and exercise. The starvation part of it is to eat up some of these dysfunctional synapses. My saying is, for every damaged molecule, there’s a damaged thought. Those are injured neurons inside the brain, and you just need to get rid of the dysfunctional molecules that are causing those neurons to malfunction. Then, heal the brain with neurotrophic factors. Be outside. New thoughts, new patterns of behavior. When my first wife was declining from a host of other things, I’d take her walking as much as I could. I would tell her bad jokes. Change her surroundings. The typical things people have to do. Being outside is enormously effective. There are stimuli you can’t even relate to, but you perceive them. Your unconscious brain is what’s going to heal you first.”  

I’m taking the starve and exercise thing to heart with an intuitive approach to keto. Some days I will wait till I’m hungry to finally eat at between 12 and 2 pm. I’ll do 10-15 min workouts, walking by deadlift bar. He has said ‘don’t jog it’s too dangerous’ and that one I have really begun reflecting upon. In November through January, I was playing too much speedgolf. I had classic burnout symptoms and can’t keep below 130! Now I play cart speedgolf for wind sprints. At over 50, it’s easy to become unhealthy with endurance training. Be sure that you are performing aerobically and that your metabolism has minimal stress. Pursue a shorter, more intense competition to avoid chronic overstimulation of stress hormones.  

Download Episode MP3

Brad: 00:08 Welcome to the get over yourself podcast. This is author and athlete, Brad Kearns, discovering ways to be healthy, fit, and happy in hectic, high stress modern life. So let’s slow down and take a deep breath. Take a cold plunge and expertly balanced that competitive intensity with an appreciation of the journey. That’s the theme of the show. Here we go.

Brad: 01:24 With the show. Of course you have to work at whatever you’re doing. You have to have high standards for your work, but you also have to realize that there was a lot of stuff that you can make too big of a fuss over and when you stopped that, it doesn’t mean you don’t care, but when you stop beating yourself or beating someone else over it, when you stop ruminating about it, you’re free and you’ve got to set yourself free. There’s stimuli that you can’t even relate to that you perceive them and lots of studies showed it being around large bodies of water have a calming effect on the central nervous system.

Brad: 02:08 If you have a workplace with a hundred worker, half of the work is done by 10 workers. This is mind blowing. I’m not a participant in the bureaucratic work place, so I have no a good reference point here. I floated this to a few people that I know that work in large organizations and they were like, oh yeah, absolutely. I barely got the sentence out of my mouth and they’re like, for sure. For sure. That’s true. Oh, that’s brutal, man. Get off. You’re dead ass if you’re not. One of those 10 people and join the join the fun. These people are probably living in the most healthy, vibrant life of uh, all the people in the, in the a hundred person workplace.

Brad: 03:47 Welcome to the breather show insights inspired by Doctor Art DeVany, one of the true forefathers of the ancestral health movement. Good friend of Mark Sisson’s going way back and oh my gosh, he started blogging 2005 2006 and was a great inspiration, uh, to Mark and others, uh, at the initiation of the Primal Paleo movement with his insights about patterning our diet and especially our exercise patterns after our ancestors. So the guy is retired now. He’s what, 82 years old and not so much in the public eye, not crank in the podcast circuit or the Paleo lecture circuit, but he has delivered some of the most profound life advice I’ve ever heard.

Brad: 05:01 If you go back and dig into his old podcasts, he has a book called The New Evolution Diet, uh, that came out several years ago and now he’s on Facebook is where he does his public communication, but he used to have a wonderful blog. I think he had to pay to sub subscribe to it and it was well worth it talking about these intuitive, simple ancestral based insights that form the foundation for this fabulous movement. Uh, we did hear him recently on a 2017 podcast interview on the aligned podcast with Aaron Alexander. That was a great show. So go look that one up. I also found one from over 10 years ago, uh, where he was talking about both economic theory as he is a retired professor of economics specializing in Hollywood economics. So he wrote a book a long time ago, uh, about, uh, how to determine if a Hollywood movie will make money or not. And I think some of is a takeaway. Insights were that the marketplace is very chaotic. A lot of it happens by word of mouth and it’s quite unpredictable. So good luck Hollywood. Keep focusing on quality.

Brad: 06:12 Like Jerry Seinfeld says, work on your act and quit trying to turn it into a metrics with, uh, analytics instead of keeping it as an art. All right. So, uh, yeah, go look for him on the aligned podcast. And I’m going to give you some great tidbits and insights. I’ve been doing a lot of research on the subject of longevity, uh, as Mark Sisson and I are working on a grand comprehensive project for a new book and it’s become sort of a hot topic these days. I know there’s some other folks, uh, working on, uh, longevity books and projects. I guess we’ve already been told enough about the mechanics of what to do, what to eat, how to exercise, how to sleep.

Brad: 06:54 And so now we want to turn our attention to uh, optimizing. Uh, what is coined the term coined is health span rather than just lifespan. Right now we’re doing pretty good extending lifespan through pharmaceutical and keeping these poor folks and lives on machines and a drug regimens where they’re barely functional but they can squeeze out a five more, 10 more years than they might have decades ago. And so we can proudly tout these, uh, heightened life expectancies in modern times. Uh, but again, just recently, some very disturbing news in the past few years is that today’s younger generations, like my children have a lower life expectancy than I do for the first time in the history of humanity. Very disturbing. Anyone who’s a parent, you want to reflect on that? Man, that’s a disaster. Especially because we have all this technological advancement and exchange of information over the Internet where we’re dialed in, we know exactly what to do to how to live a long, healthy, happy life.

Brad: 07:58 But we’re just don’t seem to be doing a great job of, for example, disengaging from technology or staying away from crappy food. Because it’s stuck in our face. The temptations are everywhere. The commercials, the billboards, the social acceptance of eating processed food. Yeah, little disturbing. Anyway, so back to Art DeVainy. Um, here’s a nice quote. He’s just talking about going for it in life and he says most things don’t matter that much. But when you see an opportunity for a mentor, a business partner, a life partner, you have to go for it. These are the moments, these are the things that will change your life. It’s not the incremental, not the steady drip, drip, drip. Very interesting. Think back into your own life and consider those times where you had life changing events or circumstances. Many times it did not come in that drip, drip, drip fashion.

Brad: 08:58 And this is an insight that’s a borrowing from his, uh, economics background where we had these chaotic explosive events both in the marketplace where you have a, a brand that took off Lulu Lemon. You have to get their clothes. They’re awesome. They’re incredible. Uh, where they here five, seven, 10 years ago. No. But Reebok was and a whole bunch of other people that have just dripped along, but haven’t seen that explosive growth to go from zero to 60 in two seconds. Yeah. Not The steady drip, drip, drip, maybe the drip, drip, drip is overrated because we always talk about keep plugging away and insights like that. Uh, I just listened to a fantastic book that’s actually a little bit old, a Seth Godin’s book called The Dip and he’s talking about the importance of quitting shit that doesn’t feel aligned with the highest expression of your talents or is just not the right direction for you.

Brad: 09:54 So get good at quitting early and quitting often. And in return you get to focus on becoming what Goden says. Try to focus on being the best in the world at something. And in this context, world means your own personal world. So trying to be the top student in your class, uh, the best plumber in town on Yelp, whatever the context is, the greatest rewards come from people who make it through intense competitive circumstances. That’s what he calls The Dip and then emerge because they’re called by the highest expression of their talents and their passions to pursue this goal no matter what. And where do we see the most dramatic example of the payoff? Is in, uh, let’s say the entertainment arts, uh, athletics, uh, entertainers where they’re making millions and zillions of dollars because they’re the very best and if made it through this dip and they were just compelled to continue going, going, going, and then have these explosive events such as getting drafted by, uh, the professional leagues or getting a hit song after you’ve been plugging away for five, 10 years, whatever. Okay? So that’s a great lesson for all of us. Go for it. When those moments come up in life, when you have that intuitive sense that it’s time to take action.

Brad: 11:17 Dang. I gotta admit, recently I went for it proposing to Mia Moore one of our favorite podcasts. Yes. And, uh, I was inspired by my interview with John Gray. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, America’s all time bestselling relationship author. We had a wonderful show, a great interview. Uh, looking on the video at Skype and, uh, the guy was going off with this rapid fire insights and, uh, then he paused and broke down a bit because he was reflecting on the tragic loss of his wife a year ago. He was married for many, many years. His wife was a featured element of his books and his educational material, constant reference, wonderful partnership, and as pretty heavy man.

Brad: 12:00 And then he’s going on in his show describing all the attributes of an optimal relationship partner and a winning partnership. And I keep thinking he’s describing Mia Moore in every way. So what am I waiting for, man? Why the drip drip drip? Why are you going to extend it out? And so on the spur of a moment, hey man, time to propose. It’s as good a day as any other one. So there we were at baggage claim at Burbank airport going forward it in life, getting the big payoff. Okay. Back to Art DeVany. Oh, I actually, uh, uh, a butched his quoter, cut in on his quote. So he talks about, uh, those are the things that change your life, not the incremental drip, drip, drip, continuing the quote. Of course you have to work at whatever you’re doing. You have to have high standards for your work, but you also have to realize that there’s a lot of stuff that you can make too big of a fuss over.

Brad: 12:53 And when you stop that, it doesn’t mean you don’t care. But when you stop beating yourself or beating someone else up over it, when you stop ruminating about it, you’re free. And you’ve got to set yourself free. Set yourself free from your old mistakes and things that happened to you. Even set yourself free from people, thoughts, foods, and habits that bring you down. That’s when you’re free. That’s when you can start a new, you can renew every day. Granted, you can’t forget the past, then you wouldn’t have any memories, but you have this potential to renew every day end quote, oh, okay. Uh, I told you he was an economics professor specializing in the complex aspects of how you can make money with Hollywood movies and emphasizing the random explosive life changing events that apply in all areas of life. So what about setting yourself free right now? With whatever stuff is bringing you down, if it’s a crappy job or a toxic relationship or maybe some dietary habits that you’ve been talking about changing for the last six months, 12 months, 18 months, go for it. Take explosive action. Try something new. Try something different. Say, WTF and move along.

Brad: 14:17 Here’s another choice, quote, quote, and it’s kind of relating to this explosive event concept. He says, and they think this is an insight that’s a, a, a law or a principal probably has a name I forgot, but he, uh, DeVany relates that in any organization, any big bureaucratic organization, half the work is done by the square root of the total number of workers. So if you have a workplace with a hundred workers, half of the work is done by 10 workers. This is mind blowing. I’m not a participant in the bureaucratic workplace, so I have no a good reference point here. I floated this to a few people that I know that work in large organizations and they’re like, oh yeah, absolutely. I barely got the sentence out of my mouth. And they’re like, for sure. For sure. That’s true. Oh, that’s brutal, man. Get off. You’re dead ass if you’re not one of those 10 people and join the join the fun. These people were probably living in the most healthy, vibrant lives of, uh, all the people in the, in the a hundred person workplace. I don’t know, maybe some of them like, uh, what was the great movie Office Space where those guys were angling it very well. So they were, uh, you know, partying and relaxing at work and doing other fun stuff with their lives, but just making it through, surviving, making themselves look good. I don’t know, man. I’d rather be one of those hard workers getting stuff done, having the day go by quickly.

Brad: 15:37 Okay. Uh, I mentioned this on another show worth repeating our [inaudible] recommendation to deal with depression. A question was posed to him accordingly and he said, boom, starve and exercise. Continuing quote, the starvation part of it is to eat up some of those dysfunctional synapses, right? Because we know the insights about autophagy, how autophagy is optimized. That’s the natural cellular detoxification process that occurs when you starve yourselves of their usual steady stream of energy. So the starvation part of it is to eat up some of those dysfunctional synapsis, cleaning up damaged cellular material through fasting, and then back to DeVany’s quote. My saying is for every damaged molecule there’s a damaged thought. Those are the injured neurons inside the brain and you just need to get rid of the dysfunctional molecules that are causing those neurons to malfunction. Then heal the brain with neuro trophic factors.

Brad: 16:47 That’s like environmental stimulus, things like exercise. He says, quote, be outside. Think new thoughts, empowering new thoughts, engage in new patterns of behavior. When my first wife was declining from a host of other things, I’d take her walking as much as I could. I would tell her bad jokes, change her surroundings. The typical things people have to do. Being outside is enormously effective. Remember, this is one of the leading ancestral health experts ever on the planet. There are stimuli that you can’t even relate to, but you perceive them. And lots of studies show that being around large bodies of water have a calming effect on the central nervous system. This is me talking now jumping into his quote, there’s also a concept in Japan called forest bathing where they actually give medical examinations inside a park with lush foliage and they see people with lower stress hormone values in lower blood pressure because there amidst nature, we don’t even know the exact mechanisms on which these, uh, insights occur or these phenomenons occur.

Brad: 17:59 But when we’re around large bodies of water, it has a calming effect on the central nervous system. One, uh, speculation is that there’s a lack of intense stimulus, right? You’re gazing out into the ocean so your brain relaxes as opposed to when you’re on seventh avenue and 54th street and you’re trying to find time square in New York City and there’s noise pollution, light pollution, especially at night, man Times Squares. Cool, but give me like five minutes there and then, uh, take me away quickly so that don’t get blasted with all that light and the dark. Very disruptive and disturbing. No offense, Times Square back to the debate. Any quote. Uh, so he, he’s talking about his first wife who was declining, taking her outside, telling her jokes, given her different stimulation. Uh, being outside is enormously effective. They’re stimuli you can’t even relate to, but you perceive them.

Brad: 18:52 Your unconscious brain is what’s going to heal you first. You can also find our veiny talking to Tim Ferriss, Tim Ferriss show. Uh, personally, when you think about starve and exercise, I’m taking that to heart with my intuitive approach to Keto. So some days I am engaged in a starvation mode. I’ll wait until I experienced true sensations of hunger until my stomach starts growling, which is the activation of the prominent hunger hormone, Ghrelin. And they’ll go until 12. One, two, sometimes three 45. Before I have any food. Maybe I’ve done some moderate exercise, uh, not necessarily like intense sprinting and then fasting that long. But maybe I’ve done no exercise and I’m just having a day of starvation. And then other days, man banging some pretty good workouts, maybe not a pairing that with starvation, but getting both of those in, in an intuitive manner. Uh, another thing that DeVany does that’s really cool as these brief bursts of high intensity exercise, so he’ll do a 15 minutes a day of lifting heavy weights and sending that renewal signal. That’s his term renewal signal to his genes and cells throughout his body. Uh, saying that, hey man, I know I’m 82 but I still want to stay strong, so I’m going to go buy a some weights. I have a nice a hex bar in my backyard and I’d go and do a set here and set there throughout the day, honoring this insight of just sending those renewal signals to the cells throughout the body.

Brad: 20:26 Oh, finally, one of the great DeVany quotes don’t jog. It’s too dangerous. What the heck is he talking about there, man? And I think he’s alluding to the high risk of health disruption with chronic cardio. So maybe jogging would be better replaced by running and doing, uh, in between workouts. Because if you’re in good shape and you jog, that’s a different stimulus than someone who’s in moderate shape and goes out there and jogs.

Brad: 20:57 And I see these people on the roads all the time and on treadmills with their red faces looking like they’re suffering. And if you compare that to what the Olympic marathon runners are doing, those people are literally working harder. They’re working at a more elevated heart rate than the Olympic marathon runner who is out there floating along looking impressive if they pass by on the trail, but they’re working in a less stressful manner than the average jogger. So when DeVany says, don’t jog, it’s too dangerous. He’s talking to most people who are out there jogging and

Brad: 21:28 Oh, let me tell Ya. And uh, uh, November, December, a little bit of January, 2018, 2019, I got super excited about speed golf and simulating the tournament circumstances by going out there and playing a full round, a good tempo, running speed. And I did it too frequently and I plunged right back into the overtraining burnout symptoms that I’m so familiar with from decades ago when I was pushing my body out there on the professional triathlons circuit. Very disturbing chain of events where I saw my health declined due to my passion for what seems like a, uh, uh, a reasonable thing to do. And, and staying fit and being outdoors and doing all that great stuff, challenging myself with a competitive goal, but so easy to overdo it when you enjoy what you’re doing. Yeah. So had to tone that down in the process. Inventing a new sport called Speed Golf in a cart. Hey, yeah, for only six bucks more. I grab a cart and I’m still playing really fast cause I want to simulate tournament conditions where I’m hitting the ball quickly. So instead of these long, uh, uh, tempo runs between shots, you know, 300 yards here, just kidding. 240 yards here, 260 yards here, another hundred and 80 yards to the green. Uh, now I’m just doing wind sprints. So I’ll drive the cart up, jump out of the cart, maybe run from the path over to the shot, back to the cart, ram it up to the green, run over, putt the putt, run back to the cart. So I get a nice workout of wind sprints, nothing too long, nothing too strenuous. Play the golf course and go home and continue on with my life without suffering from this burnout effects of jogging due to it being so dangerous.

Brad: 23:14 So there’s what amounts to a wonderful plug for an ancestral inspired exercise program where you’re doing plenty of low level movement and making sure it is at the aerobic zone and not above the often referenced 180 minus your age formula. That’s Phil Maffetone formula to quantify your maximum aerobic limit. I’m 54, 180 minus 54 is one 26, right? I think so. And so I do not want to exceed that number if I’m doing a jog or doing a, uh, a fast walk or whatever it takes to get you up to that limit. You want to have your cardiovascular sessions below that so they’re not stressful and they don’t lead to a damage, dysfunction, breakdown, burnout, illness and injury. You want that renewal signal coming when you’re just walking and hiking and taking it easy and not stressing yourself and then package with that, sending that renewal signal to your genes through brief high intensity sessions that DeVany has been talking about now for what’s that? 13 years ago he’s been banging this drum. So dig up this old material on the Aligned podcast or the Tim Ferriss podcast. Get some inspiration and thanks for listening to the breather show.

Brad: 24:32 Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback. It’s getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com and we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop, iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars and it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves because they need to. Thanks for doing it.

Brad: 25:06 I want to enthusiastically recommend DNA fit, cutting edge genetic testing to deliver a personal profile that will guide your fitness and nutrition goals. So simple. You spit in a tube and mail it off and soon you get by email. This super cool infographic where it delivers all these important insights and elements of your genetic profile at a glance, how you metabolize carbs, caffeine, vitamin D, lactose, and much more. My exercise profile was mind blowing because it revealed my genetic muscular makeup to be 54% power strength and only 46% endurance. As a lifelong endurance athletes, I’ve been banging my head against the wall training in a manner that was in conflict with my jeans. Don’t wait 20 years making mistakes like I did. Find out what Diet and exercise patterns are most aligned with your genetics. At DNAfit.com. This stuff used to be super expensive. It was a few hundred dollars. Now it’s pennies. Not really, but it’s a great deal and you get 30% off. If you just put in the code, GOY 30 checkout everything at DNAfit.com.

What an honor to talk with the #1 bestselling relationship author of all time, Dr. John Gray!

This show publishes right after Valentine’s Day, 2019 in honor of learning how to be the best you can be in love relationships. John’s 1992 masterpiece, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus: The Classic Guide To Understanding The Opposite Sex, became an immediate sensation and runaway global bestseller. It launched a Mars & Venus enterprise that is still leading the pack to this day. John’s 2017 book (and the centerpiece for this interview) is called, Beyond Mars and Venus: Relationship Skills For Today’s Complex World.  

Too young to have heard of Mars and Venus? Check this: “Now viewed as a modern classic, this phenomenal book has helped men and women realize how different they can be in their communication styles, their emotional needs, and their modes of behavior; and offers the secrets of communicating without conflicts, allowing couples to give intimacy every chance to grow.”   

Over the past 25 years, John has authored numerous sequels and ascended to the highest level of prominence as an author, speaker, therapist, and—most interestingly—scientist delivering cutting-edge insights on how innate gender differences and hormone balances affect relationships.  

John’s recent work is a real breakthrough because it breaks down relationship dynamics to the hormonal level. It also identifies ways in which we can achieve an ideal balance of testosterone, estrogen and numerous other hormones and neurotransmitters that help us become the best man or best woman we can be—especially in the midst of rapidly evolving cultural roles that make it difficult to stay in balance.   

After binging on the 10-hour audio recording and conducting this interview, I dare say the experience will be life-changing. You’ll have to listen to a future show with Mia Moore to find out what happened with us the day after the interview!   

Dr. Gray’s insights cover the stuff underneath the dysfunctional patterns that we get stuck in, the frustration and confusion of not being able to understand or connect with our partners, and the cultural prevalence for unhealthy distraction (Gray observes how males are addicted to porn and video games, and females are taking antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication in record numbers). One thing is for sure—with John Gray, you are in for a wild ride. This show is incredibly fast-moving and will compel you to read both his first book and current book very carefully if you want to thrive in loving relationships.   

At one point, John breaks down in describing the difficulty of losing his longtime spouse, Bonnie, to cancer in 2017. Soon after, he goes on an epic binge of profound insights for how men can rebuild their testosterone and feel valued and appreciated, and how women can reawaken their estrogen-dominant, nurturing selves who love to be heard and receive pleasure. This is a challenge because the free and progressive modern culture has allowed us to awaken all sides of ourselves, whereby in previous generations men played the breadwinner role and females played the caretaker role. From his basic premise, John takes us deep into the bedroom, describing how great sex can wash away lots of relationship conflict, the importance of female orgasm for both men and women, and how to have sex for 10 hours (sneak preview of a future book project!).   

John is an animated guy with a profound gift for analyzing relationship dynamics and telling you exactly how you can succeed, maintain passion and spark, become Soulmates instead of the dated concept of “Rolemates”, and escape from the frustrating patterns and repeated failures that seem to be the norm in modern culture. If you are not absolutely inspired and touched by this interview, email me for a full refund. This guy is a classic! Enjoy listening to this conversation (or watch it on YouTube!) with John Gray, Ph.D., author of Beyond Mars and Venus. Order it right now – it will transform your relationship.


What was the original Men Are From Mars, concept and how has it changed? [05:05]

The big change came about in World War II where men were gone and women found out they could do much more. [06:42] 

Of course cultures vary in the way people communicate. [08:54] 

Set good balance of your male side and your female side. [09:19] 

Video grams over stimulate the dopamine in the brain and make you more dependent on high stimulation to experience pleasure. [12:19] 

How do you know when you’re out of balance? Look at the hormones! [14:07] 

Actually, men are more emotional when they’re not confident. [16:33] 

How we relate to the world stimulates different hormones in us. [20:09] 

For men, when you do what you ‘have” to do, it increases your testosterone. [25:16] 

For a man, you have to get your testosterone to a certain amount before you can really let love in.  [29:36] 

How do you define male and female power? [33:37] 

How can one learn to have real sex instead of just releasing their energy? [35:22] 

The angriest men are the ones who are not getting laid. [45:29] 

There is toxicity on both sides.. [48:42] 

Oxytocin is generated by affection, compliments, being heard, harmony, safe feeling, and here’s the biggest safety: somebody has your back.  [51:17] 

When men grumble, it’s over soon.  When women grumble, it’s a big deal. [52:12] 

All successful men and successful people are accountable for whatever happens in their lives. [58:12] 


Beyond Mars and Venus: Relationship Skills For Today’s Complex World.   

Watch John Gray and Brad’s Conversation on YouTube

John Gray’s incredible life story 

John Gray’s Mars and Venus enterprise   


Download Episode MP3

Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad: 00:00:02 Welcome to the get over yourself podcast. This is author, an athlete, Brad Kearns, discovering ways to be healthy, fit and happy in hectic, high stress modern life. So let’s slow down and take a deep breath. Take a cold plunge and expertly balanced that competitive intensity with an appreciation of the journey. That’s the theme of the show. Here we go.

Brad: 00:01:41 I’m your host. Learn more at the links on my homepage, Brad kearns.com I also have a new button called shopping with Brad for other cool stuff@bradkearns.com and here we go with the show. Hi listeners, it’s a great honor to introduce my conversation with John Gray. Author of men are from Mars, women are from Venus, and many sequels, including a wonderful recent book called Beyond Mars and Venus where he talks about the influence of hormones on relationship dynamics and absolutely fascinating read.

Brad: 00:02:14 I was so compelled to get him onto the show after getting into this book because I really feel like it’s a, a breakthrough and a transformation, uh, in our usual approach to optimizing our relationship dynamics and working through conflicts and trying to be good partners because he breaks it down to the hormonal level and Oh. Man, this guy is a firestorm of energy and inspiration and knowledge. This is a wild ride. So get ready and hopefully you’ve heard of John Gray if you’re too young to remember. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” “This book is now viewed as a modern classic, which has helped men and women realize how different they can be in their communication styles, their emotional needs, and their modes of behavior and offers the secrets of communicating without conflicts, allowing couples to give intimacy every chance to grow.”

Brad: 00:03:08 That book was out 25 years ago. Can you believe it? He’s been working hard ever since cranking out the sequels and doing his retreats and his lectures. And this new book is called Beyond Mars and Venus: Relationship Skills for Today’s Complex World. So in this show, oh man, we travel fast, but he talks about the inherent conflict between the progressive modern culture where roles are blended and men are taking maternity leave and women are kicking butt in the workplace and how we’re trying to navigate all this pretty rapid transformation of culture if you look at it on the evolutionary timeline. So we’re navigating all this progress and change and freedom and still trying to sustain and nurture these traditional romantic relationships where we have the ideal balance of male and female energies. And what’s cool about Dr. Gray is he has that straight up therapist’s approach, but he’s also a scientist and doing a lot of research and coming out with breakthrough insights about the influence of testosterone and estrogen, the predominant male and female hormones respectively and the other complimentary hormones and neurotransmitters that make us tick and make us be the best that we can be or the worst that we can be when we get out of balance and watch out, man, we’re going into some spicy territory.

Brad: 00:04:29 So this has an e on this show. He’s talking about the importance of female orgasm for both males and females and how great sex can wash away many relationship conflicts that plague you right now enjoy a fabulous show with Dr. John Gray.

Brad: 00:04:45 So I think maybe we should start with our younger listeners, maybe, maybe too young to know what, what Mars and Venus is all about. If you could give like a brief overview of, of that presentation and then we can transition into the latest book Beyond Mars and Venus where we bring in all the, the hormones and the uh, the undercurrent of how we behave and what we need.

John: 00:05:05 I think that’s a good idea. Also with the younger generation, a lot of the basic Mars, Venus ideas, we can review it quickly, but a lot of them don’t relate to it because the males have been sort of pushed over too far to their female side and the females more on their male side. So getting quickly into the new perspective is actually kind of very good. But we’ll do some review. Okay. So, you know, I wrote, Men are from Mars 25 years ago and we were in a more traditional society then and we were limited to a great extent by conditioning. Conditioning says men have to be a certain way and women have to be a certain way. And you know, we grew up in the 60s and that was sort of the freedom. Here I am growing up in a traditional Texas family and I’m wearing bell bottom pants.

John: 00:05:53 I’m growing out my hair, I’m putting on beads, I’m free you and demonstrating for peace, you know, this was like peace and love. So that was a big deal. And what that is a symbol of his men feeling the freedom to move over to a part of us that has been culturally suppressed for center center for centuries, for thousands of years, we had a role, you know, you can’t go out into battle, you can’t go on long hunting trips, uh, all that kind of stuff and be so sensitive. So we had to be toughened up for that job. So now suddenly we have this new civilization and we’re free to move over to our, our, our softer side. Now women on the other hand, they were free to move over to their independent side. A lot of that happened in World War II and we needed people to, you know, to build the tanks and do everything.

John: 00:06:42 The men were gone, the women went into the factories and they did a great, great job. And so it was like, oh, you know, mom can also do all these things dad does because when mom was busy raising kids, you didn’t know she could do all those things. You know, when I go down and down to South America to indigenous tribes, uh, you’ll see women are pregnant, either pregnant or taking care of babies their whole lives. You know, their breastfeeding, they’re getting pregnant or breastfeeding and, and they’re always nurturing and the men are, you know, are doing sort of the dangerous stuff. They’re going into the jungle and the women are doing more of the gardening and it was a partnership based upon a level of civilization we have. Today we’re free. Now what happens is when you’re free, you get really excited. You can go overboard.

John: 00:07:25 And that’s kind of what’s happened is that men go, okay, I’m just going to go over and have a lot of fun and women are like, okay, I’m going to go over and run the company. And that’s going from the female side to the male side. And it that the challenge I see over and over and over and mostly who comes to counseling is women. So what you see for women is when they come in for counseling, they’re feeling overwhelmed. High levels of stress, high levels of dissatisfaction, feeling something’s missing in their relationship, feeling neglected and why they’re feeling neglected is they’re having a whole list of needs that men have never been expected to do. And yet women assume he’ll just do those things. Uh, you know, no father was like this great romantic guy when I was growing up. My father more traditional, he just had to have a good job and have some manners and not get angry when he’s home.

John: 00:08:14 So that three requirements, that when the woman was quite satisfied with her husband. But you know, today, you know, people often naively will say, well, where, where are the romantic men of the history? They didn’t exist. You know, Romeo and Juliet is like the romantic ideal. They died before they got the day after they got married. You know, so it, it, everybody knew romance doesn’t last, but why today is it something that we want to last? Maybe we haven’t figured out I’d do it. I feel like my message helps people to do that. But why do we want it is particularly women will say, I really want it. I want, I want to be heard. Communication is important to me. And, in indigenous tribes, women don’t complain, “My husband doesn’t listen.” He doesn’t listen and she doesn’t care. She’s with a bunch of women and they’re talking and they’re connecting.

John: 00:09:04 So she’s in a different world at that time. So when she basically, in that world, she’s, she’s at a culture that’s held her into her female side and men were held into their male side. Like my father, he did his work job. My mother did the nurturing job. But once women can break out and I feel it’s like a higher level of consciousness, you know, a retrieval, greater parts of our soul which says, you know, I have a masculine side and a feminine side and I can be both. And you know, when I talked to you, even in a minute, we’re just meeting you go into the flow. So clearly when a man goes into the flow or a woman goes into the flow, a common expression, now genius expressing her inner genius, that’s the flow. That flow is when the masculine and the feminine is balanced inside of us and simple ways. It’s when you love what you’re good at, you’re in the flow. The love part of it is the female side of us, the good app. I’m competent, I’m capable, I’m achieving a goal. I’m on my mission. So when we have our mission and we’re achieving our goal, that’s our male side. And when we’re loving it and we’re happy and we’re enjoying it, that’s our female side. And so we get both together. That’s where you’re in the flow and that’s what we are. We have this potential today, a higher consciousness. It said, I can be both.

John: 00:10:20 So what happened is I broke out of my male side going to my female side. And part of that was, you know, the whole hippie revolution and opening consciousness and going higher and all that good stuff, moving over to enjoy my life more instead of sort of sacrificing my own dreams. You know, a lot of men, they just, a lot of our fathers, you know, they had their own dreams, they had their own passions, but it didn’t pay. So you gave that up and you were happy because it made the woman happy. But now we have the potential of experiencing joy and happiness in our lives and our through creativity. And women were like starting to feel suppressed and repressed as their sole was going up. It says, I want to be both. So the women were all in their support groups, how we can be empowered, you know, power. And the men were all like, okay, what can we do? They experience higher consciousness or enjoy our lives more and have more fun in our lives. So we went both different directions to find wholeness and balance. And when you’re moving, we’ll take women when they’re moving from feeling and a box out of that box over to their male side, what’s happening is in the middle, like a pendulum going back and forth.

John: 00:11:28 As that pendulum goes to very feminine side of us to the masculine side, right in the middle is this kind of like empowerment. Excitement is the flow, but then if you go too far, then you’re feeling overwhelmed. You feel stressed, you lose your ability to love the moment, to be present in the moment. So what happens then is in the pendulum needs to come back. Now how does it come back is we need to recognize we’re too far on the other side. What are the symptoms that we’re too far on? The other side dissatisfaction, that’s it. Basically for women, they feel overwhelmed. There’s too much to do. I don’t have time for myself. You see, the female side is the receptive side of us. It’s about myself bringing in it. What do I need? What’s important to me coming back. And so many women will say, I don’t have time for myself.

John: 00:12:19 You don’t hear that often from men. We’ll take the time. We were designed to take the time because basically you know, you, you, you go out, you, you’re out there, uh, solving problems all day. We come home. That was one of the ideas of, of Men are from Mars. It was so popular is that every man has a cave. If you’re from Mars, you have a cave. You want to just come back, just decompress, forget your problems, don’t worry about anything. Maybe watch a football game, maybe meditate, maybe solve problems. Basically go online. And now it’s getting into play video games. And what happens with video games, unfortunately, is they over stimulate the dopamine in the brain. And when they overstimulate dopamine in the brain, that means you’re dependent on high stimulation to experience pleasure. And dopamine is linked in with testosterone a lot. So what happens is normal life can’t produce as much dopamine as video games.

John: 00:13:15 So what happens then is that normal life doesn’t stimulate our testosterone enough? And that’s where we move into my new work with. Women are busy working all day long, making money, sacrificing to make money. They can do that, but it doesn’t stimulate female hormones. It doesn’t stimulate estrogen. It doesn’t stimulate oxytocin. It doesn’t stimulate progesterone. So these are like hormones that are highly significant for women. Testosterone is particularly the most important for men and the difference between men and women. …Cuz many, many women who have gone to their male side, they say, what do you mean men and women are different? I have all these masculine qualities. Many men will say, what do you mean? You know that female, I have all these female qualities. They don’t experience the gender difference. There’s a fluidity today and fluidity is we actually are all a unique, different, their own unique balance of masculine and feminine.

John: 00:14:07 But how do you know when you’re out of balance? And when you’re out of balance, you have to know where do I need to go to be in balance. So when women are we on their male side, they have to know how to come back to their female side. Many to know when I’m, when I’m, when I’m unhappy. Basically if you look at a man who’s depressed, his testosterone is too low. Look at a man who’s angry. His testosterone is going down and his estrogen’s going up. Now most people don’t know that, that when men are angry or afraid defensive, their female hormones are increasing and they’re male hormones are going down.

Brad: 00:14:46 No offense, females. It’s just just how it is. It’s science,

John: 00:14:50 It’s basic science. And so what, and you know a lot of guys, they kind of go, okay, I want to be strong. I want to be confident. I don’t want to fear. I want to have strength. And you associate that with, with basically testosterone. But when a man is in a situation of challenge, particularly that might threaten his self esteem, the woman he loves doesn’t love him or he’s being attacked either one, as long as he’s confident and he knows what to do. See the male side always has to solve problems. So it’s, if I’m confident and I know what to do, then I’ll be super calm, detached, and clear. Kind of like a Samurai Warrior, Kung Fu guy, you know, you see how they, they immediately do all their moves. Yeah, exactly. Just those boots and they’re calm, cool and collected. And I studied that when I was a kid. And part of how you stay calm, cool and collected is you practice every move and you have your train to see every possible approach that can happen.

John: 00:15:48 Kind of like a chess player, you know chess players, cool, calm and collected. You’re calculating cause you know what, what, what? You’re going to do three steps ahead. That’s real mastery. So when you have confidence that you can produce the result you want, then testosterone goes high and stays high and your the highest performance. But as soon as you lose confidence, you don’t know what to do, which happens a lot. And marriages and relationships, you, you know, you just feel like you went to this person, you’re so connected. Why aren’t they responding to me? Why are they saying that I’m doing the best I can? As soon as that happens, you lose confidence. Your testosterone actually turns into estrogen and you become overly emotional. This is why when you say men are not emotional, women are more emotional. Actually, men are more emotional when they’re not confident.

Speaker 2: 00:16:37 Women are more emotional. Basically, when there’s a minor stress, and this was amazing research I found, which is under moderate stress, if you measure the blood flow in the brain to the part of the brain that’s emotional under moderate stress, women’s brains will become eight times more emotional. She might have to suppress them, but she be, there’s this surge of emotion that she has to push down constantly. For men under moderate stress, there’s no surge of emotion. Men basically detach, you know, you just start thinking, you’re turn away and you think, okay, what am I going to do about this was small problems, but as soon as it’s a big problem, which means I’ve lost confidence. Men become emotional way more emotional than women. And women will start to detach. And that’s the sad truth of what happens in marriages is when women start to feel I cannot get what I need from this guy, then they start to detach and it’s very hard for her to open her heart at that point unless she understands how to open our heart.

John: 00:17:37 And that’s like my whole message, which it comes down to your hormones cause for a woman when her, when her heart is closed in the presence of someone, her estrogen levels have dramatically dropped. She says, I can’t depend on you see there’s a place and marriage and relationships and caring and in friendship where you feel I can depend on you, you have my back, you know, that sense of that and you know you have my back and when somebody has your back and then therefore your is constantly providing a level of stimulation for your female hormones, which makes a man for a man’s point of view. It’s not like we don’t want female hormones, we want female hormones. We just don’t want them to be out of balance. Everything is simply about balance. Because as I mentioned before, genius, uh, unlimited energy, health, vitality, all of these things come back down to competence and loving.

John: 00:18:31 What you do, you know, bring in are, are being a service. Part of what’s great about being a service, even though that is our purpose in this world, is when you serve someone and they respond to you. I’m talking to the men now, but when they respond to you with appreciation, what happens is that fuels the testosterone that allows you to be selfless. Testosterone is the selfless hormone. So everybody has it backwards about men. I mean, who was it that had selfless to go into battle? Who is it that’s a selfless that almost most men traditionally did a job they didn’t even like, but ironically they were happy to do it. They smiled and they didn’t complain. Why? Because they did that job. It was the only way they knew to provide for the woman they loved. And why was that such a big payoff? Because when you came home and a woman felt in her heart, I depend on you. I remember the day my wife said to me, my wife and I were married from, when was when she was alive. We are married for 33 years and tragically she died of cancer. It was just last year. So let’s take a breath, take a breath there. Um, kind of even hard for me to talk about relationships if I go there. So I’m just going to back up, ask me a question.

Brad: 00:19:47 Well, what you’re describing in this big picture is this battle between the advancement of society. Obviously we can all call this progress. When we stepped out of the indigenous hunter gatherer role where the, uh, the, the roles were so distinct and all the way up to industrial revolution and things have been that way all the way up to our grandparents’ time, like you described. And now with this explosion of, of culture and advancement of society, uh, we have underneath the surface, uh, this battle between our two hormonal nature. And you, you describe in the book how even if you’re a sensitive kind, soft male, you probably have 20 times more testosterone then the average female and vice versa. For the female. So it seems like we’re at war with the advancement of, of culture and society and our basic nature as either male or female. And you, you a reference, I think it was Norway, right? The most, the most advanced progressive country and the disturbing statistics that everything’s equal, that women have all the rights in the workplace and then the divorce rate is right up there as the highest.

John: 00:20:52 It’s amazing. And the other part of that in Norway is that it’s mandatory to have equal number of men and women and all government jobs, but non government jobs you’ll have women who have the freedom to do masculine jobs or traditional male jobs do not do them. The majority of women are still doing traditional female jobs. The majority of men are doing traditional male jobs, construction workers, drivers, you know, those kinds of engineers, those kinds of jobs. Unless it’s a government job and then it’s mandated and women can jump into that role. Also, it’s interesting, if you go to areas like India, uh, you’ll see where there’s poverty against survival. Women are way more in the male jobs. It’s not like mandated. It’s just like they can get ahead. But the problem is there’s more divorce, dissatisfaction, less women getting married. A woman cannot, uh, fall in love or stay in love if her estrogen levels are not 20 times higher than the man’s. Now typically when a woman main parts of the month, a woman’s estrogen levels will be 10 times higher than a man and that’s fine to love him, but to be in love and couples who are really happily married and have great sex, you understand that feeling of being in love and love is an experience where you feel a surrender to your partner. I’m yours and, and its attachment to it’s your mine. You know, there’s that sweetness. Often as a man, I was introduced to those feelings primarily during sex where my heart just fully open cause her heart opened. See women to a great extent, open a man’s heart. It’s hard to be fully open to someone who’s not loving you if you’re a man because the woman’s love keeps a man’s testosterone rising appreciation is the form of communication that raises testosterone. Caring when I demonstrate caring is the form of behavior that will raise estrogen.

John: 00:22:52 So when a man demonstrates caring, that’s why for romance, and he said, be so much foreplay and so forth, there needs to be dates and so forth. And that’s why women today, when you come into the counseling office, if they’re dissatisfied in their marriage, they’re saying there’s no romance. He doesn’t listen. He doesn’t care. I could be invisible. He doesn’t see me. I’m not getting compliments. Uh, he’s not considerate, he’s not helping out. He doesn’t see what I need. And basically these are things women in an indigenous tribe would never even think of, just not even think of. But why do women think of it today and why is it a necessity for them today? To a great extent is because they’re so far on their male side, those behaviors I just described stimulate huge amounts of estrogen. So if your estrogen is really low, you need those behaviors from your partner in order to raise your estrogen levels so that you can then feel your love. And if women are not feeling loved the’re not happy. If men are not feeling successful, they’re not happy, and of course every woman enjoys being successful and it’ll also is great, but it’s not a part of her need to balance her hormones. That’s the key. Success is wonderful. We all want it. Happiness and joy and love is what we all want, but primarily a man has to know how to keep my testosterone up. What behaviors, what communication style, and nobody’s done a lot of research on this yet. That’s been my focus, which is a talk about how we relate to others. How we relate to the world stimulates different hormones in us.

John: 00:24:25 When I put my needs to the side and do something for you without complaining, for example, my testosterone shoots up when a man sacrifices for a noble cause, if it’s acknowledged, if he anticipates this is going to make a difference is one of the best things for him. So a depressed man, you immediately want to get him in a situation that he doesn’t like doing. It shouldn’t be about pleasure. It shouldn’t be. I’m going to love it. It should be. I’m going to tough it out, but I’m going to get rewarded for it. Which means you get up in the morning, you know, sometimes you get, I mean I’m basically, I’m 67 years old, I don’t have to work, you know, so I could easily just go over to my female side, which is called retirement. Retirement. Just do what you like and you watch so many men die after they retired cause they’re not balancing that energy is saying, you know, I’m going to get up today and I’m gonna go do what I have to do.

John: 00:25:16 So there’s this sense in masculinity, when you do what you quote have to do, it increases your testosterone, particularly if you anticipate being successful. If you don’t anticipate being successful, it’s also, it doesn’t raise your testosterone. But for women, when I analyze women who come in and who are depressed, who are stressed, who overwhelmed, who can’t, climax, can’t have orgasm, can’t stay in love, can’t fall in love, they just can’t juice up. What’s missing is this feeling in their mind? It’s a little conversation going on. I have to do this. I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to do this. That feeling of have to that pressure. That’s one of the symptoms of being on your male side, so I have to, it’s beneficial for a man not so beneficial for a woman. If she’s out of balance, it’s fine if she’s in balance because that’s what you know life is about is the masculine and the feminine and we’re moving into an era where we get as individuals, we can find both and we can find our unique balance of both because not every man’s needs the same amount of testosterone, estrogen. Not every woman needs the same amount, but there is this polarity and when you discover you’re feeling overwhelmed or stressed or unhappy and you’re a woman, pretty much your objective is to do things, to come back to your female side and not listen to the part of yourself that says, I have to be masculine.

John: 00:26:41 You have to just say, okay, I’ve got to go back and for me, if I’m feeling low energy depressed or have any anxiety at all or I have worries anytime of the man’s in that place, he just has to get them too far on my female. Anytime we actually have negative emotions and you’re a man, you’re too far and you’re female, if your hormones are in balance, you’ll have emotions as a man and there’ll be all positive emotions. If you’re having negative emotions, one of the few minutes, I mean negative emotions come up. That means you just got the wind blew and your tipped out of balance. So you need to come back to balance and let go of those negative emotions and men can do that quietly. We’re designed to do it quietly.

Brad: 00:27:19 You want to say that was a big one when you said that a male expressing anger to his partner is damaging to the relationship and instead he should go off into his cave. And I think that’s my favorite example of getting back to balance because you feel the opposite urge is to continue down that path or down that slippery slope downward. Just like the woman coming back from a hard day at work where she’s doing her thing and feeling fulfilled and, and having the maximum expression of her talent in life and then coming home and looking at a home cleaning to do list and plunging into that, uh, that depth of more and more male out of balance. And I guess with the male expressing anger, he’s getting into a female imbalance. Right?

John: 00:28:02 Exactly. I love, that’s what my favorite points in the book. And you think of it as a pendulum. Okay, I’m over here. I’m my male. I’m constantly sort of going a little on my female, a little more male side, but then suddenly I’m out of control and I go way too far to my female side. Then I just keep going out of control. Just like if you’re on a tight rope, you now you’re just going to fall down on the other side. And so a man needs to recognize, first of all, if you want to, woman to love you. And most men don’t even know how important that is until they get maybe a little older and they realize, you know, this life is meaningless because a lot of, if I don’t have love, it’s kind of a growing up for men to recognize how important love is to support him. Because primarily because we first want to feel lovable and men feel lovable. Meaning I’m worthy of love by being good at something. Look what I can do. Look what I can do. You know? Um, I was recently on a vacation with a bunch of friends and we’d go on vacation twice a year together and we don’t care

Brad: 00:29:01 what kind of friends?

John: 00:29:03 Well we’re all authors were all bestselling authors, males or females, males and females. This is a group thing and we all have the same occupation, similar occupation. So, and we always have these competitions on one of the day, I’ve never won any of them. It’s a one won first prize. All right? I was so happy. I mean, we just, it’s like winning, winning, accomplishing achievement. It was all play, but it was really quite wonderful and even though I feel very worthy of everybody’s love and so forth, I could let him more love. It’s just the, you have to feel worthy. It’s to let it in and recognize it’s there. And so for a man, a lot of it is is you have to get your testosterone but a certain amount before you can really let love in. For Women, they don’t. A woman, basically it doesn’t. Theoretically, if you look just on the female, they don’t need to earn love. One of the hardest things for women is to let go of trying to earn love. See, that’s when you’re on your male side, you want to earn love and when you’re on your female side, you have to get, I deserve love. I am beautiful. You know, beauty is the face of God expressing itself. Women and body beauty, whether they’re perfect they don’t need to be perfect. They need to be feminine. One of the qualities of femininity is beauty and beauty is attractive and it attracts.

John: 00:30:22 She doesn’t have to go out and earn love. She needs to just recognize I am the receptive force of the universe. I tracked it in, you may not attract it from everybody. You don’t need it from everybody, but when you don’t get it, then you feel as a woman, if you’re not feeling love, you’re on your female side. You have to love from the world, helps a woman feel safe to open up to feeling worthy, to receive the love. When she receives the love, that’s when she gives love. You have to receive and then you can give. If you don’t have, you can’t give. So women, when they receive, that’s the female element, then they can give what they’ve received. The problem for women is when they don’t get love or what they need, then they feel I haven’t received, they go onto their male side and think I’ll have to earn it.

John: 00:31:12 And so again, as a therapist, what you see all the time is women giving and giving and saying, I gave too much. I gave too much. It didn’t come back and, and that’s this. That’s this. The foundation of resentment and resentment is what kills relationships is when you think you get up in the morning and you feel like, Hey, I’m not getting what I’m giving. Well stop giving so much. That’s what I tell women. Stop giving so much, but don’t withhold love. Just stop over giving. And how do you stop over giving is you start giving yourself what you need. Stop expecting men to give you everything you need. Stop expecting the world to give you everything you need because the truth is what you need is always present. You just looking in the wrong direction. And quite often what you’re looking for, what you’re missing is doing things for yourself.

John: 00:32:04 So women are constantly doing things for others, which feels good. You know, the brain gets excited for a woman when she’s giving, because in the brain it says, Oh, if you’re giving, you must have received. Because when women are in harmony with their balanced hormones, they feel motivated to give what they receive, not to give from emptiness. Giving from emptiness is, unfortunately, a free in balance. It’s an imbalance happens all the time. Well, it’s the basis of relationships that, because if a man gives from emptiness, you’ll fill up. See on your male side, I got nothing. So I’m just going to go out there and do what I don’t want to do for somebody and they’re gonna love me, I’m going to fill up. So if you give an empty out, it is whatever you got. Just give it empty. Then we fill up. We have to give and then get back.

John: 00:32:55 But women need to recede and then give back. I mean you, you feel like you know a lot of men who had all given to them, they become weak. I won’t say every man, but you got a, Rockefeller did a book or one of those guys on children of rich men, male boys of wealthy fathers often have difficulties. You know, we had a phrase a long time ago called playboys. If you are rich, you were a playboy. You didn’t have to work. You just had fun and having fun couldn’t make a commitment and you became a drug addict. He became a food addict. You got divorced. All of these problems would happen and rich to males, a rich families, not always the females because females there were

Brad: 00:33:37 Females can handle it. Paris Hilton’s group and no problems.

John: 00:33:41 Yeah, no problem. Because the femininity is not about earning it. It’s about having it come to you. Let me, let me define male and female power for a moment. This is another idea in the book. I just love it because so many women are all about empowerment and I’m going to be in power. Look whatI can do look very good. It feels really good and they feel very powerful, but that’s masculine power. Masculine power is the ability to accomplish, to achieve the organize, to put it together. Look what I can do. That’s masculine power. We all know that feeling. It’s like when I won the competition, look what I did. Look what I did. Softer, just doubled. You know?

Brad: 00:34:16 Are you going to tell us what you, what the competition was? I mean you’re, you’re a bunch of bestselling authors. I’m sure these big timers are competing at a high level. What did you do?

John: 00:34:25 Okay, I’ll get to it. I’ll get down to that. It’s a fine cause I’m so proud of myself. But what is female power? Masculine power. Look what I did. Okay, and that’s this. And that’s why women are always like, oh men are so and ego and everything cause cause we need that. That’s testosterone. Stigma is, look what I did. And testosterone doesn’t seek to control others. It seeks to serve others. It’s only low testosterone. Men, they want to control others. All that negativity of what people often associate with the negative ego is, I’m feeling so insecure about myself. I have to control you as opposed to detachment. The Buddha, you know that’s testosterone is being able, I don’t need to control anybody. I got it. You know, that’s walking around like a stud. Look what I can do, which I’m going to do a book coming up probably in a few years, called 10 Hours of Sex.

Brad: 00:35:18 Can we take a break?

John: 00:35:20 During the 10 hours?

Brad: 00:35:22 Yeah.

John: 00:35:22 It’s generally about an hour of in and out. And then you take a little break and then another hour did an out and a little break that out and try to figure out a way to help these young guys get motivated to learn about how to have real sex instead of just releasing their energy all the time. Because if you learn how to have orgasms without ejaculating, then you just want more and more sex. You never lose your desire, but you’re not frustrated about it. And this is something that’s been, you know, not taught to the masses because people couldn’t do it. But this new generation of males who have both male and female, if you balance it, then you orgasm, but you don’t ejaculate. And then you just keep, every morning you got a cucumber.

John: 00:36:00 I mean, it’s the best, but you know, I’m 67 and it’s, look, I like my God, this is so wonderful to learn these things that we’re just not taught. And what young guys don’t know is that they’re losing all their power with over and over ejaculating several times a day to porn. What’s happening is they’re losing their interest in real women. They can’t sustain interest with a real woman. They can’t get that excited with a real woman cause the the, the Internet sex, and I’m not against anything, I just looking at the brain here, which is when you have high stimulation, like cocaine feels really good. When something feels really, really good, you want it again and again. What’s happening in the brain is that you’re overstimulating the brain with dopamine. That’s pleasure. Then the brain says, oh, that’s so much pleasure. We’re gonna. We’re gonna close the little dopamine receptor sites so that now that’s not so exciting, but just, just exciting enough.

John: 00:36:57 But then normal stimulation, which is not porn, which is not digital, normal stimulation will do nothing for you. Because see, when you have sex with a real woman, you’re not just making dopamine. See a naked woman in front of you says your number one. You just won the prize and all the women are naked for you, so you’re dope. You’re dopamine shoots up really high. That raises your testosterone cause you have dopamine stimulation. What happens with, with real sex is you’re having dopamine stimulated by having a naked woman next to you, loves you. You’re the one, and you’re also producing serotonin, which is simply because you feel at ease with her. You have a history with her with the more history you have with someone which is harmonious. You’ll have serotonin, serotonin and keeps your dopamine from going too high. They counter each other. You have oxytocin, which is a whole energetic field which keeps your testosterone from going too high.

John: 00:37:52 So you’ve got these counterbalance weight. So you’re connecting with real feminine energy inside yourself rather than just pure testosterone, which happens when you’re, when you’re solo with a fantasy. And so, you know, these are all like new lessons for guys to understand and I was talking about 20 years ago, but now the guys are having the experience. I can’t get turned onto a real girl. You know, it’s just not, not happening or I can’t stay, stay interested. So guys can sometimes still be interested in women. That’s an easy kind of unconscious instinct. But once you get to know her and the oxytocin gets produced, the estrogen goes up. You don’t have enough testosterone to fight that. So you lose it and that you, you just, you’re there and then you’ve got to recoil back. Then you need somebody new and different. New and different always stimulates more dopamine so that a sustained relationship, you have to have healthy dopamine, healthy testosterone levels, and a woman has to know she wants a man to stay.

John: 00:38:48 How do you keep a man to stay? You gotta be on your female side if you’re a man is going to go look for a female because if he doesn’t feel he can contribute to your life in a meaningful way, coming home to you, he will become passive and lose interest in you. And she has to be able to communicate. I need you. And that’s what female power is. Female, male powers. Look what I can do. You need me? I got the answer. You’ve got to fire. I’m a fireman. I’m on top of the world. So that’s solving problems. Female power is not having to do it. You get, look what I can do, female towers. I’m look when I get somebody else to do for me. I don’t have to do at all. That’s female power. That’s grace. That’s,

Brad: 00:39:30 You know, John, I’m, I’m seeing like these tiny little examples in daily life that I would imagine add up to a lot of trouble over time is you’re trying to sustain the magic in a relationship and you’re describing that it, that it is possible to have that had that spark going for years and years and years. But then when you have a, a simple household encounter like, uh, there, there’s a mess left over and someone said, and you did a great job, uh, stating these examples in the book where, uh, Hey, you spilled this I’ll, clean it up. Uh, you’re, you’re messy. Uh, let’s say the, the woman’s side is talking to the man where the man would be overjoyed to jump up and not only clean up the, the small mess he left but, maybe polish the, the counter with the new solution that makes it shine. But when we have these engagements where the resentment comes out on both sides and then the, the, the walls come up. That’s what I think the, the magic of the book is that you can, you can transcend that. Just by that example you just said, where the female sits back, puts her hands behind her, behind her neck and says, hey, why don’t you do this room while you’re at it and the male actually, the male part of you. Uh, we, we can switch. Uh, we could switch genders if, if we want, but just to get back into balance and allow someone to be of service rather than trying to do it all in and be at all.

John: 00:40:51 Nicely said. And that kind of comes down to the bottom line of a female should have a wisdom of how to communicate what you need in a way that doesn’t make somebody feel like they’re being criticized.

Brad: 00:41:04 Ooh, there’s the, there’s the show quote. What I got, I shout out to my audio engineer. That was it right there. That’s beautiful. Keep going. Yep.

John: 00:41:11 That’s a new, a new wisdom. And the past culture basically told man what you’re supposed to do. So women did need to ask and when a woman picked a man, it was a man who was already doing those things that she would want and value most, which was be a good provider, don’t be angry, be present for her romance, good communication, those kinds of things. Helping out around the house. Those weren’t the requirements. You know, women at all day doing nurturing activities. Men were away the whole time. There was this balance but so they wouldn’t,

Brad: 00:41:45 It seems like in a lot of ways things were easier. Maybe they weren’t reaching level nine of fulfillment and deep connection. But uh, until we get up to the highest levels, it seems like, you know, simpler times we didn’t have the, the porn addiction in the dopamine overdose and all those things that just, we, we got to navigate some trouble here, Huh?

John: 00:42:06 Yeah. We have a lot of problems today and what you’d see is they weren’t, and previous generations relationships, they weren’t at level nine, they weren’t having ecstatic sex and ecstatic sex is, you know, it’s still, our society is quite sexually repressed. But think about it for a moment. Do you pick a partner today who’s just got a good job in harmonious? No. You pick a partner who’s turns you on, you know, in couples, get a few years of great, great sex, and that’s what pulls us together. In the past it was you, your mother would say, don’t worry whether you’re sexually attracted, that’s going to go away. That’s it. I mean, sexual attraction went away for couples. And you know, I teach in other cultures today where where they’re not as advanced as us and women don’t even know they can enjoy sex. Sex is really for women and men are serving women, but today it’s in the more. In traditional relationships, sex was something women did to serve the man. But most men today, they’ll lose interest in a woman if she doesn’t enjoy sex more than him. See his pleasure, pleasure as feminine. What sex was for men in the past was sex as a way to connect with a woman and experiencing pleasure to get to his female side. Well, we’re way on our female side, man can easily just relax and enjoy pleasure. But what we want is the woman to enjoy pleasure. And then of course we’re number one. We won the prize, or orgasm is number one for us and half the women in America. I’ve never experienced an orgasm. One half of the women who do can’t have an orgasm from a man being inside of her, and probably half of those we don’t have all these details, only can have a clitoral orgasm. And you know, if you go back to some of the hidden teachings of six thousand six thousand years old, you understand that and the vagina, all the different organs are linked to different areas of the vagina.

John: 00:43:54 And if you just do clitoral stimulation for orgasm, you’re basically only stimulating your kidneys and your kidneys is what filters water. So a lot of weight gain that women had is too much clitoral stimulation, too much clitoral, orgasms. It’s basically all the energy’s going there and it’s coming from the other organs rather than going through your whole body. You know, we really need to understand one of the greatest things for health is great sex and orgasmic experience with someone you love. You can’t get to these higher levels of 10, nine, eight, nine, 10 like that, unless you experience real love. That’s the whole key to this. And that’s where you can be both hard, which is your masculine energy and feel love. You know, this is the two things together. And women after, you know, there’s certain exercise where women have to learn to keep the Regina tight.

John: 00:44:43 You know, they’re there. You just have to do the Kegels and, and, and contract. So there’s a real connection because it’s that stimulation in the vagina. It allows full energizing of her body. If it’s the whole vagina, not just the clitoris. And now we have, you know, we have men addicted to porn. We have women more and more addicted to their, their vibrator. Now vibration overstimulates the clitoris and overstimulates the kidneys, it’s going to be hard to lose weight. Uh, it’s, you gotta throw it away. You need to have a man do it for you. You need to have real touch to do it. Does it energetic sharing that happens where you joined with a man when we start opening up to realize these things and we’re getting there because we’re letting go of all this Victorian sexual suppression stuff where, you know, sex is the most beautiful spiritual thing you can do on this earth.

John: 00:45:29 And it’s awesome because it’s so powerful. It’s the most destructive thing, you know, is like the atomic. Yeah. You know, we’re in an age where we’re so powerful. It can be in there for good or for bad, but that’s what we’ll keep couples together. Personally. and I’ve couple thousand, I have counseled thousands of couples, only a few cases where we’re a couple wanted divorce when the sex was great. Always, you know, couples and you know, don’t see they have all these other problems. They’ll complain about this and complain about this, but if they just had great sex, they wouldn’t be worrying about those things. They wouldn’t have gotten in those arguments. And a man would not be angry. The angriest men are the ones who are not getting laid. That’s where it comes from. You look at all these, you know these terrorists and people like that, you know, they didn’t have fathers.

John: 00:46:14 They have no role model of what it means to be a man. They’re all fatherless. They grew up without fathers and this is research we’re seeing is happening today. What half of the boys in America, I wrote a book called Boy Crisis was Warren Farrell have the boys in America growing up without fathers. What happens is they have no role model of how a man can provide for a woman. Therefore when a woman’s unhappy and women are always going to have ups and downs and their and their mood and so forth, and if he doesn’t know how to deal with that, he goes to his female side cause he doesn’t have confidence, hasn’t seen it over and over with his dad. He doesn’t have confidence of how to make a woman happy. Then suddenly he loses confidence. His testosterone levels convert into estrogen. He becomes angry and depressed. We have to understand that when a man is angry or unhappy or depressed or irritable, argumentative, defensive, all those things that kill relationships, he needs immediately know I’m out of control.

John: 00:47:08 Whatever she says, it’s not her fault. I’m pushed her over the edge. She depends on me to keep her grounded and her love and I just went to my female side. It puts her on her male side. She pulls her sword and she loses her ability to say loving things and says really mean awful things. Mistrusting things ask, why would you do that? How could you say that? Why would you, why did you do this? How could you forget this? All of that stuff that just like a punch in his stomach cause she’s not on her female side, but a man can push a woman to her male side. A woman pushes a man to his female side. That was the example. When women do it all at home, men are going to sit back on the couch and have no energy to do anything.

John: 00:47:47 We’re waiting for the emergency. We need to feel needed. Women need to feel trust that they can get what they need. And these are, this is the new art of communication. Previous generation did not have this culture kept everything in balance, but now our goal is no longer to be in balance in relationship and that old fashioned way. We want to go to a higher level self actualization, you know, transcending the ego, becoming spiritual beings and service and harmony. This is a big task. You know, this is a whole nother challenge for society and it comes through relationship. It comes through recognizing gender roles today, outdated gender roles. We transcend that, but we have to recognize gender is real and it exists. And very few people would acknowledge that. That’s why I love this new book, which talks about the hormones because nobody can say, you know, if you take, if you take the extreme, you know what we might say, toxic feminism not toxic.

John: 00:48:42 Toxic feminism that hates men. That’s an extreme. I’m totally feminists myself. I love women. I’m all standing for women. I love for men, but there’s toxicity on both sides. And so when you get the toxic feminist, what they talk about is that there is no gender difference and that is only created by culture. And the truth is it’s opposite. Culture has always evolved. Culture is something we create in order to support people in being authentic to their level of evolution. And the past, we did not have the level of evolution capable of being both male and female at the same time, having the masculine and the feminine. But that’s only in consciousness. It’s only in spirit. In spirit we are both masculine and feminine. But in this physical body, we have to respect the temple of the spirit, which means that I have a need as a biological creature to balance my hormones very differently from a woman.

John: 00:49:37 So I need to have support to be on my masculine side if I’m too feminine. So what would that look like? Well, let’s say I’m stressed out. If I’m stressed, that means I’m low. Too much estrogen, not enough testosterone. So I need to do something to build testosterone. Well, I have to stop doing anything that will create estrogen. Well, what are the things that create estrogen? Intimacy? I need to withdraw. I need to detach. I need to pull away. I need to, and my wife, I love my wife. She’s an estrogen machine for me. Every time I get close to my wife, my estrogen is going to go up. So if it goes too high, my testosterone goes too low or that’s why after you’ve had sex, if you’re a guy, many guys, you have sex with your wife or your partner or whatever and you, you ejaculate.

John: 00:50:24 When you ejaculate, you’re going to your maximum female side. That’s pure female. That’s surrender as this kind of like, oh my God, I love you forever and then I want to leave you, but it’s too much estrogen. A huge amount of oxytocin gets produced. What are the functions of the oxytocin that creates those contractions? Is oxytocin through affection, through touch. It creates safety, and when you’re saying your testosterone goes down, danger increases testosterone. Okay, we know that. You know, problem. Got to solve it. Urgency, get out there, raise your testosterone, safety, the message. We’re saying everything’s fine now we’re just going to relax and cuddle there. No sex there. Okay. Just obviously Towson, so what are the functions of oxytocin is it lowers testosterone and allows estrogen to go up. Now that’s not known fully yet. I found some little bits of research to back it up, but I have to pick and choose.

John: 00:51:17 What happens is about 20 years ago we learned through science that oxytocin was highly significant and helpful for women to regulate stress. Now what I’ve found is oxytocin and oxytocin is generated by affection, compliments, being heard, harmony, safety, feeling, and here’s the biggest safety. Somebody has your back. Somebody has your back and what happens in the beginning? Women feel he’s there for me and then he forgets. He doesn’t do this, he doesn’t do that. He gets angry a few times. After a while she just go, I can’t ask him. I can’t ask him. I’ll have to do it myself. And why is that? That’s a whole other dynamic. I talk about men’s grumbles. Let’s say I’m on the computer, I’m focused and let’s say my testosterone is not like really, I’m not fully confident. Okay. If I’m not fully confident on focusing my, they really solved the problem, I’m really into it.

John: 00:52:12 So I’m fully trying to maintain my, my, my focus. And then my wife walks up and says, John, did you do this and this and this. Now to shift my focus, hyper focus over to her has a symptom of irritable. I’m going to be a little irritable. Okay. Cause I just let go of my focus and I’m shifting over to estrogen land. Too much estrogen in that moment. So there’s a grumble that men have kind of irritation, annoyed and women feel that. They don’t know that once the grumble is over, it’s over. It’s not a big deal. When women grumble, it’s a big deal. They don’t forget. If you ask a woman to do something, she goes, well I don’t want to do it and oh please do it. That’s going to be like in the history books. Okay. So when women grumble it means it’s a big problem when men grumble, just ignore it. And then reward it.. Just give a lot of love and it goes away and it’s like a dog who has a tail. You know, some dogs will bite and have growl, but they’re got their tail up. That means they’re not going to bite you, but they’re wagging their tail. They’re happy to stay barking, but they’re wagging their tail. But if they’re not wagging their tail and they’re barking, then watch out. That’s a woman. So when men bark, women, women project, oh my gosh, I better not ask again. Otherwise he’ll hold on to all these feelings of resentment, but it made it very quick to let it go. Only if she rewards him. That’s the whole key for men. Remember I did this selfless thing, something I didn’t want to do, but if I anticipate you rewarding me with love, appreciation then it’s okay. I guess I should give a few examples here.

Brad: 00:53:47 One them I give example of a couple that has great sex. There’s, there’s rewards going on. Everyone feels rewarded. And so these, these nit picking arguments are turned out to be trivial.

John: 00:53:58 Absolutely. I think of one story, but I’ll try the big story, but I shorten it down. So one day I’m listening, my wife and she just had all these complaints and all these complaints and I said, okay, I’m just going to listen. And it was like went on for 50 minutes almost now. I said, now can I talk to you about what I feel because I’m ready to give her 50 complaints back tit for tat petty stuff. You know, but if you’re going to be petty, I’m going to be putting, this is ridiculous thing couples do. And then you said, if you’re happy, I have no problem. But if you’re going to complain, why got count complaints and make it fair? So I said to my wife, after listening all this time, now you feel hurt. She said, yes. I said, well, would this be a good time for me to tell you how I feel?

John: 00:54:35 And I was just ready to go on all my defensiveness, you know all about well, for every problem she has I got to. Okay. So I can, I can complain to if you let me do it. So as I said, would this be a good time? And she says, no, and then I just listen for a good 30 minutes and you’re not going to let me. It’s like it really quick, the other. But that was my female side. Got It. Okay. So then so I say, well, when would be a good time? And she says, I don’t know, but right now I want to bask in the sunshine of your love. I was like, what? How can you feel loved by me when you just criticize me for fucking 30 minutes? But it was, I didn’t fight back. I was able to sort of detach and hold my feelings over there, but I still had them.

John: 00:55:17 That was my estrogen over there. It was still, I’m still upset. So let’s call it a 100 degree upset. Then she said, you know, I’m gonna make you your special dinner tonight. And she was smiling and she was happy and she started singing in the kitchen. I mean, I thought it was in a Disney movie, little blue birds going around. So again, happy woman made me feel successful. So my testosterone starting to rise, my estrogen starting to go down, but still I was feeling a bit angry, a little bit resentful. You know that, hey, I share. I listened. She didn’t listen to me. Then that night I’m in bad baby to go to sleep, turned over and she goes over to the drawer with the sexy lingerie and she puts on some sexy lingerie and I’m going, why a woman who had 50 minutes of criticizing complaining about me and her life, how could she wouldn’t have sex with me?

John: 00:56:02 But I certainly didn’t mind. And she came and gotten bad and I kind of felt a little anger, but then somehow she just started reaching down south and touching me. And it’s the, the thing about men is we forget everything is forgotten when the blood flows south. So then we made love and it was wonderful. I forgot we were upset, but then went to sleep. Then the next morning she just sort of woke me up and John, this might be a good time if you want to tell me how you feel. I have no complaints at all. Those things were petty. It was nothing. All we want as men is they want to feel that we have been successful in making a woman happy and there’s nothing more powerful than a great sex life.

Brad: 00:56:38 Oh, what a story, man.

John: 00:56:40 It is a good story.

Brad: 00:56:41 So back to a common situation where we’re not supposed to get angry when we’re out of balance and we’re holding onto, Huh,

John: 00:56:51 Let me, let me back up. You’re going to be angry when you’re, when you get angry and you’re a man, when you’re out of balance, then you will be, one of the things is you’ll be anger is a sign that you are out of balance. So what you do is on judge the anger. Nobody’s wrong for being out of balance, but what you do as a man, as you recognize, don’t speak. If you talk, talking about feelings increases estrogen, talking about solutions, my create testosterone. If your partner said, oh, what a good idea, but they’re not going to say that right now. So if you’re angry, you need to take distance. Distance creates testosterone and do something that increases testosterone. Now, you know, my book has a lot of things, but basically exercise, meditation, anything you’re good at, will build your testosterone levels up.

Brad: 00:57:38 So then you go ahead and do that and then you come back and you’re still holding on to something. Maybe it’s an important matter that you really do need to address. Unlike unlike John Gray who forgot the next morning, whatever is his petty things where it, but maybe it’s, oh a, we looked at the, the credit card bill and, and we’re, we’re over the max limit and we already had a talk about this and I’m still upset even though we just had great sex last night. Uh, then I guess there’s a safer, more strategic time to really make progress because you’re, you’re back in testosterone balance is that you’re a recommendation?

John: 00:58:12 The recommendation, one of the qualities of masculinity now talking to the man is accountability. All successful men and successful people are accountable for whatever happens in their lives. Do you look at it and you go to the, you know, somebody can hit me, okay, I’ve been affected, but then I have to be accountable. How did I set myself up to get that blow? How would I put myself in that situation where that was going to happen? You, that’s accountability. If you don’t have accountability, you’re always in a victim. If you’re a victim, your estrogen levels are going to go up, and that’s one of the problems today is one of the things for women who have low estrogen, which is rampant. Now they’re all going to doctors to get estrogen, and that’s not the answer. When the women have low estrogen, one of the ways is complaining and being a victim.

John: 00:58:59 When you express, talk about negative emotions and negative feelings and talk about what you’re missing inside, what you’re missing in your life, estrogen levels go up. That’s why. That’s why therapy is 90% women. They come to therapy as you get to complain by somebody who empathizes and connects with you or ray who brings your estrogen levels back up. So back to men when pull away, and my whole thing is, first I need a bump my testosterone up. Then I need to reflect on what happened and look, how did I contribute to what happened? So I’m not coming back to point out to her what she did. I’m seeing my mastery in life. Is it? How did I connect? How did I contribute to it? And I don’t ever tell her how she contributed unless she’s really just having one of those nice after sex conversations.

John: 00:59:48 So if you’re still hurting inside, you don’t talk to your partner. If you’re a man, you go to another man and you make jokes about it. That’s another thing that men have to learn. Women need to go heavy to come light men need to go light to come back to opening the heart again. And you can learn this from like firemen who really see the worst of life, you know? And when they leave a fireplace, they don’t want any women around. They’ll just make jokes about what they saw. They have to because they saw the worst. And soldiers will do the same thing. You become irreverent and you talk about, you lighten it up. You have to disconnect from your emotions. Now, Buddha, I, I’m a big meditator. Okay. I teach meditation as well, and that’s my major way to disconnect from my estrogen. Basically, Buddha was teaching to men who are like criminals, and so when he taught them, empty the mind stop thinking. That’s the worst thing for women to do. They need to talk about what’s going on inside, but for men it’s about learning to forget temporarily what’s bothering you and feel good. Then when you feel good, look at the problems and how you can solve them without making other people, without not communicating criticism. That’s the whole thing. And those are communication skills. But what we’re focusing on here is you need to get to the place where you don’t have to talk about what you feel to feel better. Your heart is open again.

Brad: 01:01:05 Wow! That’s being accountable. That’s big.

John: 01:01:09 Yeah. That’s being a man.

Brad: 01:01:10 Right from your book. You said, suck it up,

John: 01:01:14 Suck it up. And of course there’s all the poor men, poor men, they’d been taught to suck it up and push their feelings down. So just talk about your feelings and not get an arguments and I’ll go get in fights. That’s what happens. There’s a place that I talk about my feelings all the time, but when they’re loving, when my heart is open, that’s what women are really, when they say, what are you feeling? They’re hoping what you’re feeling is positive. They don’t want it. They, you know, talking about negativity, if you’re a man, why your charge is the worst thing you can do. Analyzing and talking to another guy or talking to a woman therapist is fine too, but never from the point of view of trying to change the person. See when you’re upset, usually we’re trying to change somebody. If you’re upset and you’re trying to just st change somebody. You’re pushing at them, they’re going to resist you. You know, you will always get more of what you, what you don’t want. If you resist it, you push at it rather than open up and provide understanding and that’s a whole nother part of the book, which is understanding what women’s primary needs are and men’s primary needs. It’s a big picture. This has never been taught before.

Brad: 01:02:22 That’s why I loved it so much. I want to take some tidbits away, like what we can take those baby steps back to getting out of these bad patterns. And one of them is the the Venus talks. So you can describe a, when the woman comes home from a stressful day in the workplace, the modern workplace, where to, it’s a new thing for females anyway, on the evolutionary timeline. And what’s a, what’s a Venus talk? What’s the man to do there?

John: 01:02:45 Okay, here’s a practical, that is when this is something couples need to discuss. This doesn’t work if we don’t understand the concept that women need help to come back to their female side. They need that help. And men can provide that help. We’re not talking about what help men need. We’re talking about what women need help. Who are the guys who are always saving women? We, that’s our job. We’re supposed to save the women and women are the most unhappy people today at all history. So much depression, so much divorce, someone dissatisfaction. They need our help. And one of the biggest problems for men is as women become more independent, they don’t need us. So many men out of work. We don’t have a job. And when a man doesn’t have a job, he’s somewhat depressed. He sits there and watches TV, plays his video games. He doesn’t have any juice. Every guy who thinks he’s about to get laid has got a lot of juice. He’s happy to do cartwheels for her. That’s who we should be. We should wake up that guy every day. But women have to need us and after that, appreciate what we provide for them. But women don’t need men for money anymore to a great extent. And that was a major thing. That was the major need women had. He’s going to provide. And if you did, you’re providing come on and go to sleep and your wife was happy. She didn’t mind. She, you did. The big thing that she didn’t have to do, didn’t want to do even. And now today she’s doing that herself. So why are we needed? And if you’re not needed, you’re testosterone levels are low. This. This is like a crisis we’re in, so being a stock is for women to recognize what they need more than anything.

John: 01:04:17 If they’re feeling stressed is the race or estrogen, and to raise your estrogen, you need to talk one of the most efficient ways to do it. There’s lots of ways. Go do something you love to do is going to raise your estrogen, go to your doctor and ask for help. That’s why women see doctors more is whenever you need help and you’re trusting, you’re going to get it, your estrogen goes up, but you need to realize one of the beautiful things where being a star is the recognized. Talking about your feelings, nitpicky things, the little things talking about it will actually raise your estrogen. Go to indigenous tribe. You’ll see women talking about nitpicky things all the time. Oh, she didn’t do this. Oh, they didn’t want my child’s not doing. Just little things, talking about not big things, little things, nitpicky things about at work.

John: 01:05:01 They didn’t do this, they didn’t do this, but that produces a little estrogen. More estrogen is what she can talk about, the emotions she’s pushing down all day long. So that would look like I was in traffic. I was so frustrated because I wanted to go here. I was disappointed because I got to, the computer was broken again. How many times I have to ask these guys, but to feel emotions, uh, concerns, disappointments, frustrations, and that’s a whole a section, you know, that’s, that’s like learning how to speak English, how to speak language, you know, emotional intelligence, how to communicate your emotions and the way you do it. Or you communicate your emotions but not about him. That’s the art you have to say, this is not about you. I’m not looking for a solution. I just need your, I need your presence. I need you to just be there and not speak and not offer advice.

John: 01:05:46 Do nothing, just don’t speak. I’m going to do this for five or six minutes. That’s it. Practice sharing emotions about your day, about little stuff. But you’re revealing what’s inside. So the intimacy is about men going into women. It’s about women having to open up and share. And it’s a powerful estrogen stimulators cause you’re sharing nit picky things, which you would never let anybody know. You’d be always seen as a weak person. I don’t want us to be that needy person. I don’t want to be seen as overly sensitive on top. Those emotions are there. And so she has to learn to soften and open up talking about little things and over time, more and more estrogen gets produced as opposed to holding it in until becomes big things. See we were in this place of the problem has to be really big before we get emotional.

John: 01:06:34 And that’s a masculine quality. You know, I’m standing in front of an audience and cry and everybody has huge respect for me because I’m talking about my wife who died of cancer and you know, I feel like I don’t want to live then, oh my God, that’s very manly because it’s a big problem. But if I say, you know, God my, My, my book, I didn’t meet my book deadline or they didn’t pay me enough, you know, it was like, oh I like that line and get out there and do it. You know? So there’s a distinction here. So Venus Talk is learning how to express frustration, disappointment, concerns, worries, and ideally get deeper to the emotions of it. And his job is only to listen, listen. And then after you’re done like six, seven minutes and then talk about, but you don’t need to say anything. I love my job, I love my life, I feel great. I just didn’t need to get that off my shoulders and I’ll feel better. And then he come and then go in for the hug and then let them know a three second hug, six second hug just feel so good. I’m just feel so glad I can come home to you. You’re such a grounding influence in my life. Boom. It goes like, Hey, I didn’t have to do anything. And I did that. That’s like pure Zen. You know, that that’s not doing, doing it’s enlightenment,

Brad: 01:07:40 Right? Cause we have to suppress the, the burning desire to solve the problem. So when you hear these crazy, uh, complaints about, uh, the, the, the workplace dysfunction, you, you have a quick solution, but you have to suppress that and just listen and nod and tone down that the male side. Otherwise you’re going to bring those hormones out of balance.

John: 01:07:58 That’s right. That’s right. So that’s a good practical and I another practical one just to walk away with men. Anytime you’re angry, stop talking, walk away. Women, if a man is angry, don’t ask him more questions. Don’t follow him. That’s how you create worst relationships. And most women do that. I see it. And over, a guy’s tendency is just to walk away and the women’s bar following him asking questions. It’s just like taking a wound and pounding on it and bringing out the worst of them. And it will just bring up more estrogen. He’s out of control and then they’ll do things. It’s awful. And women, you know that their nature is to keep talking and what are asking questions. Are real strong man. If he understands this doesn’t answer them. He just says, look, I need to take time to think about it. Well, why do you do that? Don’t you love me? I just need time to think about it and walk away. Don’t let her engage you into more conversation.. These are like, and what gives you the power to do that is to know you’re destroying your relationship. If you talk when you’re emotionally upset,

Brad: 01:08:54 well, both. Both parties can be accountable in that example and no, no. What makes people click and tick?

John: 01:09:01 You know how I learned that one is Bonnie used to say I would start getting defensive and her, she said, my tone sounded angry. I didn’t think I was angry, but she said, you’re getting angry or something like that and I know I’m just making a point here again, right or wrong here, clear as day. You know, as soon as I would get into that tone, she would just say for us, this is what works. He says, you’re being mean. I’m going away. And she would just walk away. She wouldn’t listen to him. I said, no, no, no. I can be. Well, let me see. You know, it was just talk from your heart. I’ll listen to you otherwise on love listening and it was, she said that boundary and and after. The truth is no man has the intention of being mean. You know, I don’t want to be mean to but some men, maybe kid, that’s not the right expression, but a woman’s should just say not. Don’t talk to me that way and now you’re controlling him. Instead. I need some time. I don’t want to talk. I need some time. I don’t want to talk. You’re owning yourself.

Brad: 01:09:54 But wait, I’m, I’m the bestselling relationship author in America. You have to listen.

John: 01:10:01 Timing.

Brad: 01:10:02 John Gray. What an absolute privilege. Thank you so much. We have to go get this book. It’s a mandatory read for everyone beyond Mars and Venus. I appreciate you spending the time. Good luck with all your, your future happenings.

John: 01:10:16 I appreciate it so much. Thank you so much fun with you.

Brad: 01:10:18 Thank you John.


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